Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280-299)
MR DON
TOUHIG, BRIGADIER
ANTHONY BRISTER,
MS LIZ
CASSIDY, MR
DAVID WADSWORTH
AND MS
KATHRYN FORSYTH
2 MAY 2006
Q280 Mr Borrow: Just a brief question,
Minister. You mentioned statements and the difficulty of transferring
statements. The Committee also heard evidence of delays in the
transfer of school records and obviously it is crucially important
when a child moves from one school to another that the new school
has as much information on that child as possible. Is there perceived
to be a problem there and what can be done to improve the situation?
Mr Touhig: We are working closely
with DfES to improve SC level of access to prior pupil data and
records. It is a matter that has been raised and we are in discussion
with colleagues to see what we can do to resolve the problems
when we discover them.
Ms Forsyth: There are two issues
for us in SCE. One is not getting records in good time. The second
thing is the quality of the records we receive. The issue for
a youngster in a very mobile education system is getting children
in and on with their learning very quickly and the key to this
is assessment and the records the children have. What we are finding
is that DfES gave advice to schools in England in April 2002 saying
that records should be transferred on the electronic format. The
information that gives us is insufficient in terms of understanding
where children are at with their learning. At the moment we are
looking to devise our own records system that gives good detailed
knowledge of not just whether the child has been assessed but
targets for learning as well. What we rely on are parents taking
records to schools for us. It is a significant package of information.
Clearly there are implications when the parent is unsure which
school they are going to and that may delay the system because
there are records that we do send electronically or by mail. It
is an issue that we are looking at at the moment. Currently we
are working with the National College for School Leadership looking
at the issue of mobility and transfer of records and they have
funded a project for us, so we are looking at best practice across
SCE and how we can work more closely with schools in England,
Wales and Scotland for the transfer of records.
Q281 Mr Borrow: Are we saying at
the moment that, if a child is moving from one school to another,
it would be usual for the parents of that child to go to the school
and ask for a paper copy of all the records of that child so that
they can take that to the new school? Is that the system?
Ms Forsyth: Yes, within SCE that
is the system we have at the moment and that complements the electronic
transfer information as well because we think that gives better
quality of information. Coming from England, it varies tremendously
because clearly we have got no remit to say what they must send
us. The basic minimum is as identified from the DfES on the electronic
transfer format, but, as I say, that gives us some information,
but not really good-quality information about where the child
or the student is in terms of their learning.
Q282 Mr Borrow: So would it be helpful
if LEAs in the UK had got guidance on how they should transfer
hard copies of school records when a Service child leaves to go
to Germany or wherever?
Ms Forsyth: Absolutely, and that
is one of the outcomes for our Mitigating Mobility Project with
the National College for School Leadership.
Q283 Chairman: And if they followed
that guidance that they already had?
Ms Forsyth: Yes, absolutely.
Q284 Robert Key: Does SCE follow
the English educational system and examination system or the Scottish
system and how do you cope with the problem of Scottish Service
children who hope to be able to slot back into Scotland, or do
you not?
Ms Forsyth: We do the best we
can. Obviously in all our schools we follow the English curriculum.
Where we have children transferring to and from Scotland, generally
we are looking at Scottish regiments, so those schools have got
very good links with the schools back in Scotland and we have
already identified the areas where children will find differences
in the curriculum. For example, there are significant differences
for a Key Stage 2 child in the science curriculum coming from
Scotland, so where we have children transferring to us, what we
do then is we have catch-up classes in terms of investigative
science. When children are returning to Scotland, what we will
send in the package of information is a transcript of studies
to show what the child has actually studied in terms of the English
curriculum and we will identify for Scottish teachers areas they
may not have covered in such detail according to their own curriculum.
Q285 Robert Key: When is the next
quinquennial review? Will there be another one or are you changing
the whole system?
Ms Cassidy: The answer is that
there will be another review. It will not be called a `quinquennial
review', it will be more of a generalised business process review,
but there will be another review.
Q286 Robert Key: How would that relate
to an Ofsted-type review or would it not? Is that something completely
different?
Ms Cassidy: It is completely different.
Q287 Robert Key: But will there be,
therefore, an Ofsted-type review?
Mr Wadsworth: There has been one
subsequently.
Q288 Robert Key: Yes.
Mr Wadsworth: We now have a scrutiny
committee looking at the progress made since that.
Robert Key: I just think that this is
something the Committee might urge should happen. Because of all
these uncertainties about catching up and relations with different
initiatives in England, I would hate to see you falling behind
and I would like to urge that everything is done to prevent that
happening.
Q289 Chairman: Mr Wadsworth, how
do you address poor performance in SCE schools?
Mr Wadsworth: Can I ask Kathryn
because this is her area?
Ms Forsyth: The operation is some
of the way to a local education authority in that we have a set
of performance indicators that we use to judge how effective our
schools are. As a result of carrying out the performance review
on an annual basis with our schools, we will then categorise our
schools according to need, so a category one school, for example,
is a school that is doing particularly well and will need little
support from us at the moment, a category five school where we
have cause for concern in terms of their performance. When that
happens, we will identify the issues for under-performance and
we will write an appropriate action plan for the school. The action
plan will take account of staffing issues, it will look at support
and advice to teachers and it will look at a rigorous system for
monitoring the progress made in that school, so it is a similar
system to what you would find in a local authority within England.
Q290 Chairman: In relation to the
issue of contractors working in Germany or overseas for the MoD,
how does education for their children work?
Mr Wadsworth: Are we talking about
fees?
Q291 Chairman: Yes, the charging policy
really.
Mr Wadsworth: The charging policy
is Treasury remit where we have to recover full costs for those
who are not entitled. There is a document called `JSP342—Education
of Service Children' which itemises those organisations which
are entitled to free education and that clearly will be the children
of folk in uniform and of accompanying civil servants and it also
has, under the entitled bracket, organisations like NAAFI. There
is a second group who are non-entitled, and contractors would
fall into that, who have to pay what in fact would be a higher
fee. Underpinning that, not directly, but underpinning it, is
an agreement, I understand, under both SOFA and the Treaty of,
whatever it is called in Cyprus, that we cannot, as it were, exploit
our Service necessarily to offer subsidised education to local
people. Now, that is not part of your question, but it ends up
with us having to recover the full costs and that is the policy.
There is another group of entitled which is the ARRC, the other
nation members of the ARRC, who get a lower entitlement and they
are subsidised.
Chairman: I said that we would come on
to the continuity of education allowance.
Q292 Mr Borrow: There are just a
couple of questions. One suggestion which has been made is that,
because of the level of fees, the boarding option is only really
an option for Service personnel who are at the top end of the
scale rather than the bottom end of the scale. The other point
is that, because the allowance is only paid on the basis of the
child staying at a specific school and the decision is made to
move that child from one boarding school to another boarding school,
the allowance does not carry over to the second boarding school,
so is there not a problem there if the child is unhappy at a school
or is not suitable? There is an issue which has been raised with
the Committee specifically that, if the child is unhappy or a
boarding school is felt not to be suitable by the parents, they
are not able to transfer the child and also transfer the allowance.
Do you have any comments on those points?
Mr Touhig: On the first part of
your question, we are looking at a strategic remuneration package
review and the CEA will figure in that. We are conscious of the
kind of point that Mr Borrow just made that we need to address,
so I hope that, when this review is completed, we will have a
better appreciation of the issues and we can then take any decision
where there needs to be any rebalancing of the support we give.
Brigadier Brister: I alluded to
the various costs in answer to one of your previous questions
and, unless you particularly want me to repeat what I said then,
I will move on to the second part of your question. It is very
important that we understand that continuity of education allowance
means just that. The reason that Service parents are given CEA
is so that they have the option of choosing the boarding option
in order to ensure that their child is not disrupted by constantly
changing school. Therefore, there are firm rules which are there
to make it clear to us that this is not just an allowance to let
us send our child to an independent or state boarding school,
but it is there for continuity of education. Therefore, you are
absolutely right, the principle is that you can only move at the
end of a formal stage of education. However, if you are dissatisfied
with the school or if, for various reasons, your child is unhappy
at the school, then you can put up a case to be allowed to change
school and rotate the allowance. Therefore, it is not impossible
to move, but there are very good reasons why of course there should
have to be very good reasons because, otherwise, the whole principle
underpinning the allowance would be lost and that principle is
to allow continuity of education, but it is possible to change.
Q293 Mr Borrow: Have you got figures
to demonstrate how many parents make such an application and how
many have been successful?
Brigadier Brister: I have not
got figures to hand clearly, but I am sure we could probably provide
them.
Chairman: I think it would be helpful
if you could provide those for us, please.[3]
Q294 Mr Holloway: Brigadier, you say
that the boarding school allowance is not just a sort of perk
so that people can send their children to private school, but
I do not think that is the reality. I think a lot of people, when
they join the military, accept that they are going to move around
a lot, that they are not going to earn that much cash, but that
one of the perks in a sense is that they can actually afford to
educate their children privately.
Brigadier Brister: Well, I disagree
strongly actually.
Q295 Mr Holloway: Really?
Brigadier Brister: Having been
one of those parents, I chose the boarding option and that was
not a perk. I would have preferred to have my children living
at home with me, but I wanted them to have continuity of education.
It is, as I said before, that we in the Forces have three options:
our children have a disruptive education; we board; or we live
apart from our families. None of those is ideal for most people.
It is not a perk, it is an allowance to help to mitigate—
Q296 Mr Holloway: I understand that.
Brigadier Brister: It helps mitigate
one of the disadvantages of Service life.
Q297 Mr Holloway: No, I am making
a slightly different point. What you say may be the case, but
the reality for many people, when they join the Army and indeed
when they stay in the Army, is the fact that this allowance exists.
Brigadier Brister: No, I still
disagree. I think this allowance is there to help—
Q298 Mr Holloway: We know what it
is there for, but—
Brigadier Brister: But I am disagreeing
with your perception. My perception is that the majority of people
would prefer to keep their children living at home with them.
Q299 Chairman: Minister, I wonder
if you could give us an idea as to whether some of the issues
that you have raised this morning with which you are in negotiation
with the DfES, are they mostly within, would you say, your responsibility
or the DfES's responsibility or is it a question of a combination
of the two?
Mr Touhig: I think it is a case-by-case
basis. There are some things which are wholly ours, but we need
their support and there are other things where we need their collaboration
and there is no conflict.
Chairman: We will ask a minister from
the DfES to come and give evidence to this inquiry later on. Let
us move on to the Queen Victoria School and the Duke of York's
Royal Military School.
3 Note: See Ev 76, para 8 Back
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