Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-339
JIM KNIGHT
AND MS
SUE GARNER
13 JUNE 2006
Q320 Chairman: Generally, there is
a lot of contract work being done in Germany. Perhaps we can go
into the general issues that you believe Service children face.
We have discussed mobility and turbulence, to which we will come
in some detail. Let us accept that as perhaps the major issue
facing Service children. What do you regard as being the other
main issues facing Service children?
Jim Knight: The work done by the
working group on Service children in state schools raised similar
issues to those that the Committee has been exploring. Mobility
and the funding of mobility was way up there. Transfer of records
and information was seen as significant. There were particular
concerns in respect of children with special educational needs.
Those would be the three main items.
Chairman: One point made to us in Colchester
was that whilst we might have received evidence fairly predominantly
from parents whose children had special educational needs, there
was just as much need to cope as well as possible with children
who were naturally of very high attainment but who might be being
held back by turbulence. The next issue that we would like to
go into is how we identify Service children.
Q321 Mr Borrow: We have heard evidence
that the Pupil Level Annual School Census (PLASC) does not at
the moment include data which would identify the number of Service
children in state schools. An argument has been made that it would
be an advantage if that was the case, but I understand that up
to this point the department has not gone along with it. Would
you like to comment on both the merits of such an identification
and the reasons for the department's reluctance to accept that
argument?
Jim Knight: It is certainly something
that we have looked at. As an initial view we thought it might
be desirable, but in consultation with local authorities and head
teachers a strong view was expressed that we should not do it
and that it was yet further bureaucracy and procedure that they
would have to go through. The balance of opinion then was that
we should not do it and should have a stable regime for the census
until 2010. That is the current position.
Ms Garner: When the matter went
to the focus group of head teachers and local authorities they
could not see the need for it nationally even though I thought
we had made quite a good case for it. It was decided not to add
it to the census, which is quite a big data collection process
anyway.
Q322 Mr Borrow: In my constituency
where the number of service families is relatively small head
teachers may well turn round and say that to tick all of those
boxes is to very little purpose, but obviously from the department's
point of view there would be advantages in having that data. What
advantages would that bring?
Jim Knight: I believe that there
would be advantages to local authorities where there are concentrations
of Service children. Our funding arrangements are directly with
local authorities. For example, the delegated schools fund is
paid to local authorities and they then decide how to allocate
it on the basis of their own formulas. It may be useful to local
authorities to know precisely which schools may need extra help
because of concentrations of Service families, mobility and all
the reasons that one might want to improve funding for particular
schools. For example, Wiltshire does that reasonably effectively,
but, given that we do not fund schools directly, in this regard
it is for us less of an issue than it would be for some local
authorities.
Q323 Mr Borrow: Presumably, those
local authorities with large concentrations of service children
would need to put in place some data collection of their own irrespective
of PLASC?
Jim Knight: Yes, and they could
do that.
Ms Garner: They could do so. Another
option that we are looking at is analysis of the data from the
national pupil database to try to identify the characteristics
of schools with large numbers of Service children. In 2004 the
Children's Education Advisory Service working with ourselves and
MoD held a series of workshops and tried to gather a list of as
many schools as possible that had Service children. We have quite
a bit of data already to start looking at the characteristics
of those schools and identify key issues, but it will not be through
PLASC.
Q324 Chairman: Why is it not going
to be through PLASC?
Ms Garner: Because the focus group
that looked at the items to be included in the annual census decided
that it should not be part of it.
Q325 Chairman: Of course it did because
the vast majority of schools do not have a predominance of Service
children, but this sounds like the tyranny of the majority, does
it not?
Jim Knight: To be fair, as we
explored it for the majority to have to go through the exercise
of recording might be unduly burdensome, but there is nothing
to stop authorities with concentrations, like Hampshire and Wiltshire,
asking schools to record it so that they can make sure that when
they come to allocate their funding from government they do so
in a way that is sensitive to the needs of particular schools
where there is a large turnover of Service children.
Q326 Chairman: But, surely, the issue
is whether schools with Service children are at a disadvantage
and the children themselves are at a disadvantage. You do not
even have a definition of "Service child", do you?
Jim Knight: I am not aware that
we do.
Ms Garner: No. If I wanted a definition
I would ask MoD how it defined services families and Service children.
That department leads in this area and I would use its definition.
Q327 Chairman: Is there not some
educational reason to know what disadvantages a child has experienced
during his or her previous life that would be of benefit to you
in terms of having some sort of tag attached to that child so
you would know how best to maximise the child's educational potential?
Ms Garner: It would probably be
a benefit to the schools that teach those children.
Q328 Chairman: But most schools that
do not face this issue would say this would mean extra bureaucracy.
If Brigadier Brister tells us that it would be hugely useful for
us to have that information I would very much like to have it.
Should you be at the mercy of focus groups saying that they will
not impose that burden on schools? Would it be a huge extra burden
given the quality of the information that would come out of it
for Service children?
Ms Garner: I can only tell you
that I put forward the best case I could and the focus group was
the one that made the final decision or recommendation that ministers
accepted as the final position.
Mr Jones: So, do we have policy-making
by a focus group?
Q329 Chairman: This may well be one
of the most important issues to come out of what we eventually
decide. I do not know because the Committee has not considered
it. But we would very much hope that any decisions are made by
ministers on the basis of information that comes to them, including
evidence from the Brigadier in charge of Service children's education,
and is not limited to a focus group.
Ms Garner: I mis-spoke.
Chairman: I am not sure that you did,
and that is the problem.
Q330 Mr Hamilton: There is a further
dimension. Midlothian has just taken on the Highlanders who have
moved back. There has not been a regimental base in Midlothian
for the past 15 years and so it is a new experience. Just to reinforce
some of these points, I went to the school on Friday. The level
of support of the teaching staff was quite limited in relation
to the new dimension of the 100 or so kids coming in, even to
the extent that some talked about how they could distribute the
children throughout schools in Midlothian. There are 30 primary
schools. I strongly argued with the education authority in my
area that that would be wrong based on evidence we heard in Germany
where children take comfort from each other, especially when the
parents are in conflict situations. But in this situation there
is not a number of schools but only one school in one location.
There is also the Scottish dimension, because education authorities
are different. One of the basic procedures is that when children
return from abroad the education facilities that are offered are
all based on an English system, not a Scottish one. What work
is being done in relation to that?
Jim Knight: I cannot answer for
Scotland.
Q331 Mr Hamilton: You must be able
to answer for Scotland because you are appearing here on behalf
of the same provision. Therefore, there must be information about
Scottish education.
Jim Knight: I am responsible only
for schools and education in England, not Scotland.
Q332 Chairman: What parliamentary
responsibility exists for the education of Service children in
Scotland?
Jim Knight: While they are being
educated in Scotland that would lie with the Scottish Parliament.
Q333 Mr Hamilton: Can you explain
the rationale? What discussions take place with the MoD in relation
to trying to support Scottish children who have been transferred
back?
Jim Knight: It is not something
of which I am aware.
Ms Garner: I have not been involved
in it because we do not handle Scottish education.
Mr Jones: I am sorry but you do.
Q334 Chairman: Do you see that there
may be a gap in responsibilities here?
Jim Knight: I do not know what
discussions take place between the Scottish Executive and the
MoD agency that educates children overseas. That agency chooses
to use the English national curriculum. I apologise, but I can
answer only for things for which I am responsible.
Q335 Mr Jones: I will ask you what
you are responsible for. What liaison is there between you as
a department and the Scottish Executive? Do you say that suddenly
when one gets just past Berwick the children are thrown over the
border into Scotland and you are not really interested in what
happens?
Jim Knight: Clearly, I am interested
in children wherever, but I do not have responsibility for the
education of children in Scotland. Part of the devolution settlement
was that that lies with the Scottish Executive.
Q336 Mr Jones: But you do have responsibility
for these children. In some cases the mothers and fathers of these
children are employed by the MoD and they can be moved from England
and Wales to overseas—Germany—and then to Scotland.
You have already said there is a very good system for liaising
with the MoD over Service children in Germany. Are you saying
that we can have a system where DfES has a great system for liaising
with the MoD for the education of children in Germany but not
Scotland, because basically that is what you are saying?
Jim Knight: No, I do not think
I am.
Q337 Mr Jones: You are, because you
are saying that it is not your responsibility?
Jim Knight: I am responsible for
the education of children in England. The MoD has an executive
agency that is responsible for their education overseas.
Q338 Mr Jones: Is Scotland classed
as "overseas"?
Jim Knight: No.
Chairman: Do not misinterpret what the
minister is saying.
Q339 Mr Jones: I am not.
Jim Knight: If the transfer of
a child from England to Scotland takes place the responsibility
goes from the DfES to the Scottish Executive; if it is a transfer
from overseas to Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland it goes
to the competent authority in accordance with the devolution settlement.
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