Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80
- 99)
TUESDAY 20 JUNE 2006
Rt Hon Adam Ingram MP, Lieutenant General Nick Houghton
CBE and Dr Roger Hutton
Q80 Chairman: Is it right that the
explosive suppressant foam is being fitted only on to those aircraft
that are being upgraded anyway?
Mr Ingram: I do not know the answer
to that in detail. If I can get that to you, I will give you that.[9]
It will not go on to all the aircraft, that is for sure, and that
is part of the original Down in the weeds assessment and it was
not something which came on to my ministerial desk, this question,
as far as I am aware. It was a judgment of: can it be delivered
within a reasonable timeframe? Is it technically achievable in
the way in which it has been required? Of course we are told that
the Americans have done it and the Australians are doing it, but
I do not know off the top of my head whether that is to do with
a particular aircraft type, but these things are not just straightforward
linear equations of, "There's a shortfall and here's how
you fix it", because it may be the platforms themselves,
it may be because of the age of the platforms and you may then
have individual technical problems on individual aircraft, so
there is not a standard fit and, therefore, that could put delay
into the programme as well. However, we are on the case and we
are trying to find the best solution and there is of course very
heavy engagement by Lord Drayson who is keeping a very firm hand
on the progress of all of this.
Q81 Linda Gilroy: There is some perception
that it is about cost and I wonder, therefore, if you are in a
position to say something more about the time input that is required
to fit the further defence states, the suppressant foam particularly,
because I know in the past that one of the things I have learnt
in having an association with procurement issues is just how very
long and extensive some upgrades and refurbishments can take in
terms of time. I have no idea what we are talking about and it
would be very interesting to know just in a rough ballpark time
term what we are talking about that would take the airframes out
of use for a period.
Mr Ingram: Obviously to get the
fit, it would then have to be taken out of use. How quickly can
we get them back? Meanwhile, if you then use the maintenance lines
of marshalls who will do the job, this work may then impact upon
other refits of that same platform and, therefore—
Q82 Linda Gilroy: There are two bits
to my question—
Mr Ingram:— to get the balance
between the regular and essential maintenance because aircraft
would come out of the loop naturally and go into that repair loop,
but if there is something sitting on that line getting a new fit
for it, then that is delayed, so you then have two aircraft out
of the loop or maybe, if it is a multiplicity of that, whatever
the number is. In terms of the capacity of the industry to deliver,
and that is where we are closely engaged with marshalls and they
will be working very hard at it, but again we have to get best-negotiated
price and relationships in all of this. I want to make this very
clear to you, that we are on the case here, we have very close
ministerial involvement through Lord Drayson in driving that programme
through and when the answer comes back that it will take X amount
of time, we will ask why and whether there is not a better way
of doing all of this. We are negotiating the best answer in terms
of those competing priorities of the new fit as against essential
and regular maintenance.
Q83 Mr Jones: The problem I have
with this and especially the media attention on this is the fact
that this is going to make this aircraft indestructible which,
if you read some of the comments, is what is being put out there,
so I have been listening very carefully to what you are saying.
*** my reading of it is that if you have a major structural failure,
*** you can have as much fire suppression, but it will still end
up with the aircraft crashing. Secondly, we have now lost two
Hercules, so what is being done now to replace those and is that
creating any problems in terms of shortages?
Mr Ingram: Well, no, or perhaps
let me put this another way. It is possible that that is the case.
However, all our fleet tend to have a number of extra aircraft
and it is the crew that is a limiting factor, so you can only
sustain a number of losses and others will then come into the
cycle. It depends where they are in the repair cycle, and this
is another point, that something may just be short of usability
and it may well only be a matter of a few days short of usability,
but it is not usable until it comes off that maintenance line
and, therefore, it is down as a non-usable aircraft. It would
be very unlikely that, with two coming out, it then means that
the whole fleet is then completely destabilised, but again we
will try and give you the best picture of that and the impact
of those two losses and the fragility of that fleet overall.
Q84 Chairman: Have you picked up
in your conversations with the crews of Hercules aircraft any
wish for improvement in the night vision goggles and any view
amongst them that this would be comparatively quick, cheap, easy
and with high payback?
Mr Ingram: Honestly, no, I have
not heard that. I cannot remember the last time I flew in a Hercules,
but I have not had that comment made to me. In fact I was on one
of the first flights going into Afghanistan where they were given
night vision goggles and the story I tell was that they were saying,
"All you are looking for are flares on the ground".
All I could see were flares on the ground and it was very real,
but then they said, "Those are fires. Those are not people
firing at us", and I realised it was just as well that I
was not in command of the aircraft. No, I have not picked up any
worries about that. I am not saying there are not any, but just
personally it has not been commented on.
Q85 Robert Key: Minister, for more
than a decade members of this Committee have been concerned about
the use of soft-skinned Land Rovers and vehicles in very dangerous
situations, cheap and cheerful options which have, by and large,
done a good job, but we have moved on, and I know that the Army
has moved on. I would like first of all to ask, when are the new
Snatch 2 vehicles going to come on stream because that will make
a difference?
Lt General Houghton: All those
vehicles which are deployed to Iraq are of the enhanced Snatch
variety. Therefore, they do have enhanced protection, but—
Q86 Chairman: They are still the
Snatch 1s.
Lt General Houghton: I will have
to go back and check that.
Q87 Chairman: Well, they were there.
We saw them.
Lt General Houghton: ***
Q88 Robert Key: I know that the Panther
command and liaison vehicle is due for an in-service date of 2007.
Something that really concerns me is that we have constant criticism
of the Royal Military Police and yet, when it comes to battle,
they are right at the front. They are always forward and they
are marking routes for armoured vehicles, so they are fine behind
them in their armoured vehicles, but out in the front there it
is the Royal Military Police. Then in the peacekeeping role, as
we now see, the Royal Military Police are also there and they
have taken, I think, more casualties than any other unit out in
Iraq at the moment and they still are in their soft-skinned Land
Rovers in very, very dangerous circumstances. Can you tell us
whether the new Panther CLV is actually going to be rolled out
to the Royal Military Police because there was a time, and in
fact it was post-1991/92, when it was recommended that the RMP
be scaled for the future command and liaison vehicle and the deficiency
was noted on the land critical equipment deficiency list and that
was as recently as 2001, since then it has all gone very quiet
and they do not know whether or not they are going to get the
new vehicle. Can you help?
Lt General Houghton: You are asking
me a technical problem about a fielding of equipment to the Army,
into the field Army and its priority, and off the top of my head
I could not tell you. We can certainly go away and research what
the fielding plan is. I do not know that the RMP are being offered
a priority or early in the fielding or are planned for it.[10]
Q89 Robert Key: But the British Army
website told me on the 18th of this month, just last week, that
the Household Cavalry and the Royal Armoured Corps would get them
and so would the Royal Air Force regiment, but no mention of the
RMP.
Mr Ingram: The point is made and
we will find the answer.
Robert Key: Thank you. I am very grateful.
Q90 Mr Havard: At one level there
is a concern about the Snatch Land Rovers in the sense that we
were told that certain people were not confident to travel in
them. The Iraqi Special Forces, for example, would refuse to go
in them because they saw them as a vulnerable vehicle that was
now known to be vulnerable and, therefore, it was exceptionally
targeted as a consequence of being seen to be vulnerable, and
I think that the concern is around that. Now, I did not get any
of that from our personnel, but this is what we were told. I understand
that it is very difficult to armour this thing. It is a Land Rover
at the end of the day and it is already seven and a half tonnes
and it is straining the chassis and all the rest of it and it
is not going to last, so there is a reliability problem, they
are breaking down, and we saw them being towed in convoys and
the heat does not help. There is a problem here and all I am doing
is identifying the problem rather than helping with a solution,
but I think that this was the level of concern in terms of what
can be said to address that. *** which had made an enormous difference
to their confidence then in travelling in Snatch Land Rovers.
Mr Ingram: The Snatch, and we
will find out whether there is still Snatch 1 there in theatre,
but it has a particular utility. It is a question which I would
ask, and I know it is asked by our military people as well, whether
there is something off the shelf which could replace it, and the
answer is no to that, which would give the all-round protection
that we would seek with the same utility and manoeuvrability.
Again it goes back to this point that there is a balance of risk
in all of this which has to be taken. Leaving aside the vulnerability,
and I understand the point that is made about that, but a balance
of risk has to be taken here and again, since there is nothing
else that can have that utility with all armoury which would be
required, then we have to continue to do that to deliver on the
key parts of the mission that we are seeking to deliver on. Meanwhile,
we are up-armouring the FV430 and we are purchasing new armoured
equipment which is scheduled and planned to go to Afghanistan
because that is where we believe it has best utility. The point
I am making here is that we are very conscious of where the threats
are coming from, but we do not necessarily have every capacity
to deal with those threats, and this is one of those issues which
would probably be blanked out in the evidence session, that we
have vulnerabilities. The Americans have vulnerabilities. Every
armed force has a vulnerability or vulnerabilities.
Q91 Mr Holloway: Frankly, I think
you are in a completely impossible position with Snatch vehicles.
One of the things that was pointed out to us was *** It was just
a thought that one major raised as to whether it would be possible
to have a group of people at the gate and every time these vehicles
would go out, they would get experts, technicians, to check that
the guys had set them properly?
Lt General Houghton: I do not
know what is actively being done at the moment on that specific
initiative of a sort of guardian at the gate. ***
Mr Holloway: ***
Q92 Chairman: Although that would
have its own drawbacks itself because it would take individual
responsibility away from the soldiers whose job it is to make
sure they are running the equipment properly.
Lt General Houghton: The field
Army is charged with producing the optimum training regime and
monitoring regime for these things. I am always happy to carry
back any initiative, but there will be pros and cons.
Robert Key: Minister, there have been
reports that doctors are saying there will be deaths from high
temperatures in Warriors and other armoured vehicles if air conditioning
is not installed swiftly now. Is there any prospect of such air
conditioning being installed in those vehicles? I was not in Iraq
with my colleagues, but they have experienced it and I think Linda
Gilroy may have something to add.
Q93 Linda Gilroy: It was hot!
Mr Ingram: Yes, I have heard about
it, but remember, our soldiers get a lot of pre-conditioning so
that they are acclimatised to that, but that of itself does not
mean to say that they can cope effectively with the heat extremes.
As I understand it, the specific answer to your question is no,
but what they are looking at are particular coolant packs that
soldiers can wear around their body armour, but we do get to the
point of how much more encumbrance can we put on them in that
sense, but we are very conscious of this. The temperatures have
not got worse over the last three years, this is a repeat mechanism,
but heat exhaustion is a real debilitation and we have got a lot
of people who suffer from it both in and out of vehicles. Again
I would make this commitment, that if there is a solution, it
will be found because we recognise the importance of that, and
it can be done under UORs, but again if you are going to do it,
and I do not know the technical aspect of this and why it is not
going to be integrated into the vehicles, but probably because
it is maybe technically difficult. It may just be to do with that.
Robert Key: I think it is probably of
air, not ice. I have been in Warriors in hot countries and if
only there was a proper fan, even if the air was moving faster,
but not a chance.
Q94 Chairman: When they take the
covers off and air floods in at 50 degrees centigrade and you
think, "Thank God! That's cool!", then it suggests that
the temperature inside the Warrior has become really quite high.
Mr Ingram: It sounds as if they
have given you a really hard time on your visit.
Q95 Mr Havard: The question of the
vehicles is one thing, but there is then the question of what
I would, as a layman, describe as "decompression" so
that you are in these very hot environments and then how can you
recover? There is a recovery period before you go back into them
again. I was talking to the doctors about that so that they have
an alleviation so that they can cool their body temperature down
and this sort of thing, and I accept that there are complications
with keeping acclimatised, but nevertheless it is that alleviation
period. We saw some really difficult situations in the Palace
in Basra where then the domestic air conditioning was not working,
so, having been out in the heat, they then come back to the heat
and they are never out of the heat. That was not because of the
military, but apparently this is done by contractors and so on,
so there was concern that they were not given that alleviation
period because other people were providing the air conditioning
facilities in which they could recover before they go out and
do their next shift or whatever. I think that was the area of
concern that I had, that they do not get a break from it so that
they can recover and go back into it.
Mr Ingram: I do not know all the
factors to that, but I do know that the commanders or the COs
or whatever, they are very conscious of what is required by personnel
and I do not think the whole bag is that someone is letting the
boys down basically. If a contractor has failed, I am sure someone
will be on the case to say, "We won't repeat that".
Q96 Mr Havard: There was also a difficult
situation obviously with the cooks and the kitchens. It is how
the individuals are managed for the periods of time in which they
are in the extreme conditions and unable to recover from these
extreme conditions.
Mr Ingram: I do not know how the
cooks survive in those kitchens doing what they are doing and
when the demand is for chips. It is not for salads, but it is
more hot food.
Q97 Linda Gilroy: On the positive
side, and I think it was at the hospital, we did have a briefing
on the heat management issues which showed that they had managed
to get a better direction of trend in terms of people suffering
from heat exhaustion. On the other hand, I did wonder at Basra
Palace, and I was very concerned, because that relief from 50
degrees centigrade carrying these enormously heavy body armour
things, because they are, and the more it is right to be concerned
about the balance there between protection and what that can do
in terms of heat exhaustion. These guys were getting, if they
were lucky, two to three hours sleep because there was no air
conditioning and, I have to say, it had been going on far longer
than it should have been. I am not going to put on record how
long, but what I would ask the Minister to do is to look at how
contracts like that are reviewed and managed, particularly for
air conditioning equipment, because there are definite health
issues, in my view, there.
Mr Ingram: Well, I have said we
will do that. The Secretary of State is visiting Basra and in
fact he may even be there now. I am sure that, if you have been
given that message, someone will give him the same message.
Q98 Linda Gilroy: It was not easy
to get the message. One of the things that I admired in the guys
out there was that they did not whinge easily and it was actually
like drawing teeth to get some of the information from them and
that was one bit of information.
Mr Ingram: That is actually a
reflection of the quality of our people, but it is also, I think,
a reflection of the quality of the kit that they have, and that
was not the case four or five years ago in terms of early deployments
because I would have been getting it more in stereo about the
failure of the kit and about the inadequacy of the accommodation,
but we do not get those complaints now.
Linda Gilroy: Can I, on the positive
side, Chairman, say that where we were staying at Basra air station,
several people said to us that they had never had better accommodation.
Q99 Chairman: And the good comments
we were getting about all sorts of things about the food and about
the quality of leadership that people had out there were themselves
very encouraging. Minister, you said that, if there is a solution
to this air conditioning problem in the Warrior, then you would
look at it immediately. It is one of the trials of the Chairman
of the Defence Select Committee that one gets proposals for procurement
most days and I will hand to you one that involves fuel cells,
which I understand is a commercially off-the-shelf available solution
which could bring the temperature in Warriors down to 21 degrees
centigrade. That is my understanding and I will pass it to you
for what it is worth and I hope you will consider it in the normal
way.
Mr Ingram: At a reasonable price,
one would hope.
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