Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-106)
RT HON
DES BROWNE
MP, BRIGADIER STEPHEN
ANDREWS CBE AND
MR DAVID
GOULD CB
11 JULY 2006
Q100 Mr Havard: No. It is part of
a police inquiry as well, as I understand it.
Des Browne: In my view we ought
to restrict all of our comments in relation to that particular
case. There is a police inquiry going on, there are people who
are potentially subject to criminal charges but there is also
a grieving family—
Q101 Mr Havard: Yes.
Des Browne: —who have lost
a valued and loved member of their family and we need to be careful
the conclusions we come to. Can I say to you that there is no
place for bullying or brutalisation in the Armed Forces or in
the Army, and we have made in my view significant progress in
a comparatively short period of time to deal with these issues
and certainly during my term of office I will be ensuring that
the progress we have made is reinforced and put into application
in the Armed Forces. It is no part of our responsibility to those
people who come to serve in our Armed Forces to train them in
a way which crosses the boundary between robust training and brutalisation,
it is no part of our job to do that, and I do not know of anybody
in the Army command structure who thinks it is. In relation to
the specific programmes we have instituted recently, which is
what I think you were asking for, to ensure that ambition is translated
into practice, I will defer to the Brigadier.
Brigadier Andrews: Briefly, the
key to this of course is in training, really good, purposeful
and challenging training, particularly for non-commissioned officers
and for instructors. In the light of all that we have learnt in
recent years, a great deal of effort has gone into that, particularly
in the Army, my own service. We have concentrated enormously on
preparing instructors in particular for not only that they should
be effective military instructors but that they understand profoundly
well their duty of care to the people who are placed in their
charge and whom they have to turn into soldiers. Of course we
see the evidence of the quality of their work on operations as
we speak.
Des Browne: I think the complementary
element to that of course is the issue we were addressing earlier,
which is the complaints procedure which is robust and which has
the confidence of serving soldiers, particularly those who may
be in a potentially vulnerable position. They have the confidence
to complain, that the investigations are rigorous and thorough
and that they are responded to appropriately. That is why I am
pleased that the recommendations of the Blake Report have been
so fully embraced by the Department and substantially reflected
in the Armed Forces Bill.
Q102 Mr Havard: You have made the
very connection I would have made and that is why I asked the
question about where is the commissioner. One final question:
there was a promise of a review. The Director of Army Personnel
Strategy was appointed to conduct a review of the lessons learned
from allegations of abuse by British soldiers in Iraq. All I would
really like to ask is where has that got to and when are we likely
to see something come from that review?
Des Browne: The Brigadier has
indicated to me he knows the answer to that.
Brigadier Andrews: That review
continues—I cannot comment of course on these cases and
there is still particularly one case arising from very serious
allegations made in Iraq which has yet to come to trial—and
that review will not be complete until that Court Martial case
has been completed.
Mr Havard: I just hope that the press
have done their own review of their own behaviour during that
process as well. Thank you very much.
Q103 Mr Jones: One point in terms
of the commissioner: can I say, Secretary of State, do not let
the Army, the Brigadier and his friends, water down the proposals
for a commissioner, because if we actually lose the opportunity
now of having an independent commissioner, I think something will
be lost. Could you let the Committee know when these details are
being put together because it is getting very close to the wire
in terms of the Armed Forces Bill going through Parliament if
we are going to have delay. What I would not want to happen is
for it to fall off the end of the list and somehow we have to
pick it up again in the next session because I think that will
leave a lot of people very let down.
Des Browne: We have responded
to the Blake Report on 13 June and I will ensure that Mr Jones
and other members of the Committee, if they have not had access
to that response, have access to it to comprehensively answer
this question.[7]
Q104 Mr Hancock: You said earlier,
Secretary of State, that there was a robust complaints procedure
but the Blake Report and this Committee's Report on Duty of Care
came to the conclusion that was not there, and the essence of
them was that the only way you would have a procedure which would
actually clearly recognise that you were doing something was to
put in place an Armed Forces commissioner. You did not answer
the question about when you would expect this person to be in
position and in post. It is one thing having the conditions of
service for this person being written, but I think the Armed Forces
are entitled to know when this person and his staff will be in
place so that robust complaints procedure you talked about, Secretary
of State, will actually be in place. Nobody should say at the
present time there is a robust complaints procedure, because both
Blake and this Committee reported quite comprehensively that that
did not exist.
Des Browne: I think, Mr Hancock,
that everything I have said to the Committee in relation to this
assumes there is a knowledge about the nature of the Armed Forces
Bill and the provisions in the Armed Forces Bill. If I have been
wrong in doing that, then maybe I should have been more explicit.
Clearly the changes we felt were necessary to the complaints procedure
as a result of Nicholas Blake's recommendations involve primary
legislation. Some of them, in fact all of them, are reflected
in the Bill. The timescale for the implementation of them is dependent
on the conclusion of the parliamentary procedure and then we will
implement them once we have an Act of Parliament in the way in
which Acts of Parliament are implemented through the proper process.
So that is the answer. Until then, we have to re-double our efforts
to ensure that we instil the level of confidence in the environment
we have. Part of the difficulty we have in addressing these issues
is that the discipline processes, the complaints processes, of
the Armed Forces and in particular the Army are structured in
an Act of Parliament and we have to amend the Act of Parliament.
Q105 Mr Hancock: So if that Bill
completes its process by the autumn, you would expect to have
the commissioner in place by the end of the year?
Des Browne: I cannot answer that
question now. It seems to me that is potentially a hostage to
fortune but I will endeavour to answer that question in written
form giving the Committee the best estimate of how quickly the
independent reviewer, the independent element of this process,
can be in place after the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament. [8]
Q106 Chairman: Thank you. Secretary
of State, it would be wrong to end on a note of complaints against
the Armed Forces, because when we visited the Armed Forces in
Afghanistan and in Iraq we were all outstandingly impressed by
the sort of work that they did, the sort of people that they were,
and I think we felt a great deal of pride that they were there
representing the United Kingdom in such an effective and brilliant
way. I think you are a very lucky man to be in charge of those
people out there.
Des Browne: Thank you very much
indeed, Chairman. I will ensure that your sentiments on behalf
of the Committee are reported back to those who should hear them
rather than me, and that is the people whom we deploy on the ground.
Can I just say part of the reason why as a priority this basket
of issues which broadly goes towards reputation is so important
to me is that I do not want a comparatively small number of issues
to detract from the significant and deserved reputation that our
Armed Forces have internationally.
Chairman: Thank you very much. Thank
you also for facilitating our visits to those places in such an
effective way because they were very good visits. Gentlemen, thank
you very much for giving evidence this morning, it has been extremely
helpful and in many cases very interesting.
7 Note: See Ev 22 Back
8
Note: See Ev 22 Back
| 
