RT HON ALAN JOHNSON MP

19 JULY 2006

  Q240  Fiona Mactaggart: I welcomed your initial commitment to closing the social class gap, but I wondered what you were doing about other chronic gaps like, for example, the under-achievement at most skill levels of people within certain ethnic communities and so on.

  Alan Johnson: Well, there are an awful lot of initiatives going on here. I am going to have a meeting in terms of Afro-Caribbean boys with the family of Stephen Lawrence because Jack Straw has asked me to and also with Valerie Amos who has got some ideas, but there is an awful lot going on here, and with Bangladeshi communities. There is an initiative, I forget the name of it, but it is one that Valerie Amos was talking to me about particularly focusing on black boys, looking for our support, so yes, that is one of the areas we need to look at.

  Chairman: This Committee has looked at under-achievement fairly recently. It is still an interesting Report if you would like to have a look at it.

  Q241  Mr Wilson: Secretary of State, I would be very interested in that information you have on the Bangladeshi communities, by the way, so if you could let me have anything, I would be extremely interested. I am very keen to pursue this targeting of individual disadvantaged children to improve their life chances, and you suggested you are sympathetic to the velcroing of money on to the back of poor children. Has your Department done any work on this or analysed this in any way? Have you got any trials in mind?

  Alan Johnson: They have done some work to try and get this factor, this figure of how we could better discern where disadvantaged children are. It has not been tremendously successful yet because it is very difficult to do, and that was the inference of my answer earlier on.[12]

  Q242 Mr Wilson: But it is something you are obviously looking at and, if you are able to do it, would you let the parents of those poor children choose any school to spend their money on, whether it be a public or a private school?

  Alan Johnson: I see an education vouchers question looming. No, we would not.

  Q243  Mr Wilson: So independent schools would not be able to benefit disadvantaged children?

  Alan Johnson: There is a very good report by Peter Lampl—I am his greatest fan—and the Sutton Trust, but this is an area where I do not agree with the Sutton Trust. Indeed Belvedere College which they mention is becoming an academy, so it will be in the state sector, but I do not agree with taking state money to give to state pupils to go off into the private sector. There are the areas I talked about earlier on about the Charities Bill, how the independent sector, if they have charitable status, can actually help the state sector with their facilities, et cetera, but we are not going back to assisted places.

  Q244  Mr Wilson: Even though doing that might be of massive benefit to those disadvantaged children and to the parents of those disadvantaged children?

  Alan Johnson: Well, I think it is questionable whether it would be, really questionable whether it would be.

  Q245  Stephen Williams: I want to follow up what David Chaytor was asking you earlier about the split between 16-19-year-olds and then adult education because in fact your Department gave us that breakdown. We might be able to see why it was skewed because 16-18 FE expenditure from 2001-08 projected has gone from £1.7 billion to £3 billion, whereas post-19 has gone from £1.6 billion to £1.8 billion, so there is a £1.3 billion increase for 16-19, but only a £200 million increase for 19 plus and for adult education skills separately it is actually a fall from £241 million to £207 million. Now, you did not like the quote I put to you earlier about variable fees, but I did read yesterday that you want more plumbing and less Pilates. Does that sum up your attitude to adult education?

  Alan Johnson: There is a lot in there. No, what sums up my attitude to adult education is that our priority must be those 15 million adults who are functionally illiterate and 17 million who are functionally innumerate because of education failures of the past, to give them an NVQ Level 2 entitlement and to introduce a Level 3 entitlement for 19-24-year-olds which we will introduce from, I think, 2010. That is where we have to go. Pilates is fine and learning conversational Italian and the Spanish guitar is great, but there needs to be a contribution, not pay for all of it, but a contribution to it because we need to focus taxpayers' money on where we believe the priority is.

  Q246  Chairman: There is a big difference, Secretary of State, between that, Pilates, all those things you have just mentioned and the ones that we have been particularly worried about, the kind of community education which gives that first step on the ladder.

  Alan Johnson: I agree and you raised this point very rightly at Questions and I agree that is why the new foundation tier is very important. There was always a presumption that they would charge 25% of the fee and that was very rarely used. The presumption is that it is going to go up to 50% and it is a very important way of ensuring that FE is really brought out of the Cinderella stage and—

  Q247  Chairman: You really are hooked on the Dearing principles?

  Alan Johnson: I am, I am indeed.

  Q248  Mr Chaytor: On the 14-19 diplomas, do we have a date for their publication yet?

  Alan Johnson: I am not sure, but I will let you know.[13]

  Q249 Mr Chaytor: Last year we had the Higher Education Bill and this year we have had the Education and Inspections Bill. Do you envisage another education bill next year?

  Alan Johnson: Yes.

  Q250  Mr Chaytor: What will be the main thrust of it?

  Alan Johnson: We would be very keen, if we could, to get an FE bill.

  Q251  Chairman: Would we be able to do a pre-legislative inquiry into it?

  Alan Johnson: I am going for a stage to see whether we can get one and I think once I get to that stage, it is a good idea.

  Q252  Mr Marsden: Transience in schools, pupil mobility, Secretary of State, is a big issue in some of the inner-city areas, as Fiona was talking about, and a big issue in seaside coastal towns, Blackpool included, with a 50% turnover. We have had two big reports by Sally Dobson in the Department in the last five years emphasising it. When are we going to see some financial support to address the issue?

  Alan Johnson: I saw your questions on that to my colleagues and the very interesting answer that they gave, which I forget, but I will stick by that. It is an important issue, particularly looked-after children where the Education and Inspections Bill had an element that said even if schools were full, they had to take in looked-after children to stop them being dumped in the worst-performing schools, so it is an issue with us. I cannot give you an immediate answer, but perhaps I will write to you.[14]

  Q253 Chairman: We are going to pull stumps except for one thing from me. Is the Academies programme on course?

  Alan Johnson: Yes, absolutely on course and yesterday in Nottingham I sat in a room with head teachers, the local authority, a major employer/entrepreneur, the University of Nottingham, a Royal Society and a charity, all of them keen to put money into the three new academies that are going to come in to Nottingham and also very keen to get involved in trust schools.

  Q254  Chairman: So there is no shortage of sponsors?

  Alan Johnson: No. If anything, it has increased.

  Q255  Chairman: How does that fit with what seems to be coming out from Sir Cyril Taylor, this early identification of bright pupils and following them right through? What is that all about? Is that you or is that Sir Cyril or who is it? Where is that coming from?

  Alan Johnson: Is that in relation to academies?

  Q256  Chairman: I am asking you, how does this all fit together? What is this programme to identify the brightest children from whatever background and then follow them through? Where is that coming from?

  Alan Johnson: The gifted and talented?

  Q257  Chairman: Well, I do not know. Is it?

  Alan Johnson: I do not know which. Sir Cyril is a marvellous man and I—

  Q258  Chairman: And you pay his salary and he keeps on about tracking every gifted child in this country through to see what happens to them and to give them special educational help. Is that something that you are fully involved in?

  Alan Johnson: I think we ought to recognise that there is a problem with gifted and talented children who are not being stretched enough and we need to ensure that we recognise their needs. Just in this personalised learning issue, they have got different needs from the disadvantaged child's needs, but the disadvantaged child could be a gifted and talented child. I think Sir Cyril is on to something, but how we actually map it through, I am not sure. 15

  Q259  Chairman: Secretary of State, it has been a good session. Welcome back to the Department and welcome back to the Committee and we hope to see you for quite a long time.

  Alan Johnson: Thank you, Chairman.

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