Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-93)
SIR ALAN
WILSON AND
PROFESSOR DAVID
EASTWOOD
10 JULY 2006
Q80 Chairman: Beginning of September?
Professor Eastwood: September
1, yes.
Q81 Chairman: Sir Alan, are you moving
out of your present job?
Sir Alan Wilson: I am afraid Professor
Eastwood and I only overlap by one month because I will leave
on 30 September.
Q82 Chairman: And you are going to
become Master of Corpus Christi in Cambridge?
Sir Alan Wilson: Indeed.
Q83 Chairman: Congratulations on
that. Do we know who your successor will be?
Sir Alan Wilson: Not yet.
Professor Eastwood: I think it
is wrong to see the consultation document in isolation, I think
the consultation document has to be contextualised. Next Steps
is a part of the immediate context for that, but the 10-year strategy
is there, as is HEFCE's own current corporate plan, so I think
that the issue that Sir Howard rightly pointed to—is there
a policy analysis, are the principles articulated? Yes, they are,
they are in the 10-year framework, they are in our current corporate
plan. Is what is being consulted on running counter to those?
No, I do not think it is.
Q84 Jeff Ennis: I am trying to work
out why an organisation like Universities UK would say something
like that or Sir Howard Newby. Might they think that the Government
is working to a hidden agenda here do you think or—
Sir Alan Wilson: Can I comment
on that and it connects to one of your earlier comments, Chairman,
about academics being taken out of the loop which resonates very
strongly with me? I mean I am rather surprised that UUK would,
as it were, call for a full debate, because there is a sense in
which the availability of the full debate is there almost continually.
I would say the Department through its ministers and through its
officials and indeed the Funding Council have a pretty good record
of, as it were, continual engagement with the sector and continuing
consultation as is clear in the central discussion we have been
having and very fortunately academics do not hold back, so if
they actually have comments to make about government policy then
we hear them. I actually do not feel we are in a vacuum. I agree
with Professor Eastwood that there is a policy framework within
which this is set and I do not think from the nature of our normal
engagement with the sector that we are cutting off any debate
and there is certainly no hidden agenda that we are trying to
avoid.
Q85 Chairman: The only slight worry
that this Committee would have is we know that the Ministers that
we know in the Department for Education and Skills are more worried
about those in other departments?
Sir Alan Wilson: I can only say,
Chairman, what we said at the very beginning in discussing this,
that the departments are actually working well together.
Q86 Jeff Ennis: Will metrics be consistent
with the Government's policy of enhancing the capacity of the
UK's research base in your opinion?
Sir Alan Wilson: Again if I could
start, Chairman. I think that the size of the research pot is,
as it were, a massive argument in the next comprehensive spending
review and I do not see any sense in which a change of methodology
affects that decision, so I think decisions on support for research
will be made in the usual way and, as I said in another context
earlier, I think all the evidence is that there will be continuing
support.
Q87 Chairman: Do you agree with that,
Professor Eastwood?
Professor Eastwood: Yes, I do
and I think one of the crucial outputs of the RAE and any successor
to the RAE, is that within the framework of dual support institutions
have resource that they themselves can direct, that is to say
that they can invest strategically and I think it is getting that
balance right which is critical and I think had we been doing
this from scratch and been doing this in an environment where
institutions were not yet used to research management, then I
think we would all rightly be nervous, but I think what crucially
this will result in as far as institutions are concerned, is QR
as a block grant which will have a number of purposes. Underwriting
the research base is one crucial purpose, but also enabling institutions
to speculate, speculate in terms of blue-skies research is another
and I think we need to preserve that and that is why I strongly
welcome throughout all this the commitment on all sides to the
maintenance of dual support which I think is absolutely critical.
Q88 Jeff Ennis: Final question, Chairman.
How would a metrics system achieve the high level of national
and international buy-in that is required to maintain the reputation
of UK research, the reputation that we currently enjoy?
Sir Alan Wilson: I think in the
end, as I said earlier in relation to our second place in the
league table, it actually turns on bibliometrics and while in
the past departments have promoted themselves in terms of their
5 or 5-star rating, that is not actually an international comparison
because other countries, including the United States, are actually
not doing that and there is no common base. If you actually look
at bibliometric analyses of citations there is actually a common
base, so I think as the expertise in that area develops it will
actually improve our capability for international bench-marking.
Q89 Stephen Williams: Can I just
ask, Chairman, on a subject we have not really touched upon so
far, you mentioned the fear that there may be five centres of
excellence, if some people have their way perhaps a few more,
perhaps two handfuls of centres of excellence, whereas we have
over a hundred higher education institutions in this country.
I helped launch a report commissioned by 35 universities largely
from the CMU group, but some other universities outside that group
as well, where they demonstrated they get research income from
the private sector, the NHS, the EU, but very little indeed from
the Funding Councils, partly because their research often cannot
be cited because it is contract based, therefore it is not in
the public domain. Is anything we are doing in this review going
to look at how research funding can reach the post-92 universities
or are we going to continue to have research funding concentrated
in Russell Group, the 94 Group universities rather than spread
out to other places that are still developing their research base?
Sir Alan Wilson: I think it depends,
Chairman, on the weighting of applied research in a funding formula
and we have been very open in the consultation paper that this
is a possibility and because we value that side of the research
spectrum, very much value the contribution of the universities
that Mr Williams is talking about and I think that weighting is
a policy question for ministers in the future. If you actually
look at the illustrative models on the web site there certainly
are model runs which distribute more research funding to CMU universities
because client research funding is being so appropriately weighted
in that illustrative funding formula, but at this stage it is
not, as it were, for us to choose in policy terms, it is for our
ministers down the line in institutional terms, it is for HEFCE
down the line.
Q90 Mr Chaytor: Sir Alan, one of
the prominent arguments for a move to a metric system is the growth
of interdisciplinary research. Why is there no reference to that
in the consultation document?
Sir Alan Wilson: I am sure there
is, Chairman, when we re-stated the principles from the Next
Steps paper and if it is missing, then I am sorry, but—
Mr Chaytor: I read it on the train coming
down and I listened to what you said about it, and I skimmed through
it again because I have got it here, and as far as I can see the
word "interdisciplinary" does not appear once.
Q91 Chairman: Sir Alan, I do not
think you have got time to go right through it. Sir Alan, if you
could drop us a line about that?
Sir Alan Wilson: Yes, I certainly
will.[1]
Q92 Chairman: Can I say that this
has been a good session. Is there anything you want to say before
we close this session?
Sir Alan Wilson: No, I think I
appreciate the questions from you and your colleagues, Chairman,
it has been an interesting session, I agree with you on that.
It is always valuable for us to be challenged and I appreciate
that and we will learn things which we will take away and build
into our thinking.
Q93 Chairman: Professor Eastwood?
Professor Eastwood: Can I thank
you for the session and say I look forward to continuing the dialogue
on this and other subjects.
Chairman: We look forward to a long and
happy relationship with you and you will have to live with us.
Sir Alan, I have known you a long time in many roles and you have
added lustre to all of them and can I wish you well in the new
role and I think I said I will be at your new college only on
Thursday night, so I shall suss out the catering for you. Good
luck.
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