Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160-179)
MRS EIRWEN
GRENFELL-ESSAM,
MS PAULA
JEWES, MR
HUGH PAYTON
AND MR
CHRIS GOODEY
11 JANUARY 2006
Q160 Mr Marsden: That is very valuable
and it raises two other areas that I would like to explore briefly
with Eirwen, if I may. Paula Jewes has already referred to the
situation of educational psychologists employed by the local authority,
and, if you like, their inevitable Party pre-position. My experience,
and I think the experience of other colleagues, is that when people
come to us wanting their own independent diagnosis, or, indeed,
wanting the process to go further, it is not just a question of
resources applied by local authorities or anything else, it is
a question of a severe shortage of child psychologists in the
area. Is that your experience?
Mrs Grenfell-Essam: Yes—and
obviously it is costs. These are people who have limited funding
themselves. £400 for a psychologist is extremely dear—How
can they meet that cost when they are living on benefits?—so
their child does not get assessed.
Q161 Mr Marsden: Given that most
parents who wish to proceed to tribunal contest what the local
authority is saying and are going to need the evidence of an independent
psychologist, do you think the system as it stands at the moment—and
if you do not, then please say so—inevitably privileges
those parents not just who are articulate and have very strong
views about what their child needs but also have the finances
to back it up.
Mrs Grenfell-Essam: Very, very
heavily biased that way.
Q162 Mr Marsden: I have a final question—and
anyone from the panel can pick this one up: Are there things that
might be done either via government or via the voluntary sector
to strengthen the support that is given to parents in those early
stages, in terms of advice and in terms of access to advice that
would be helpful in taking them through that process?
Mr Payton: I think your question
is hinting at parent partnership schemes. Personally I think they
are very important. Unfortunately, however, I think they are generally
ineffective because of their tight link with the authorities.
I really do feel that they should be budgeted completely independently
of authorities, such that they are truly independent.
Q163 Mr Marsden: Chris, I do not
want to put words into your mouth, and I know you have said that
these issues to do with special educational needs and statementing
and tribunals have not been a major issue in Newham because of
the situation, but there must be times, even within Newham, where
even within an inclusive system parents feel they would like to
have access to another perspective, another piece of advice about
how their child is working in that inclusive system. Do they have
that?
Mr Goodey: We are part of the
parent partnership scheme in Newham. If a placement breaks down
and a parent decides they want special school provision, then
we help them through that process. That is not a problem—if
I get the drift of your question right.
Q164 Mr Marsden: You do not feel
that your inevitable close association and relationship with the
local authority through the system compromises the advice that
you give?
Mr Goodey: Some of our staff are
paid by the local authority but not all, so we have a mixture
of staff who are dependent on local authority funding and others
who are not. But, if I could just pick up on a point that you
suggested about parents who are not happy with a mainstream placement
of any kind, it does happen but it is quite unusual. Our concern
is that genuine choice is not available in some other parts of
the country—people do not actively choose segregation or
separation. The fact is that local authorities do not advertise
or even provide mainstream provision in many cases. The courts
so far have supported local authorities in this, the High Court
has supported local authorities in this, so when parents have
wanted mainstream provision and local authorities have insisted
on separate special provision, a High Court judge has upheld this,
even though we have the Disability Discrimination Act.
Q165 Mrs Dorries: Chris, you said
all the special schools are closed in Newham. Is that right?
Mr Goodey: Yes.
Q166 Mrs Dorries: How does that fit
with the 1976 Education Act and the 2001 SENDA Act which say that
a parent has a right to choice? If there are no special schools,
how does the parent exercise that right?
Mr Goodey: I am not speaking for
the authority because, of course, when I am in Newham we are often
in conflict with the authority over this or that issue. My concern
is really what is going on in the rest of the country. In Newham,
certainly, if a parent insists—and sometimes they have to
go to tribunal and we help them, but they do not always—then
they would get a placement in a special school in an adjacent
borough.
Q167 Mrs Dorries: How many children
from Newham are educated outside of Newham in special schools?
Mr Goodey: I cannot give you a
precise figure, but it is not above the national average. I suspect
it is below.
Q168 Mrs Dorries: But you do not
know that.
Mr Goodey: I do not know for sure,
but figures are available.
Q169 Mrs Dorries: If a parent wants
special school provision and wants to exercise their right as
is upheld in the law, they have to send their children away to
a special school out of the area because there is no provision
available within the area.
Mr Goodey: Yes.
Q170 Mrs Dorries: In answer to a
question from Gordon you were talking about statementing children,
and I found that quite interesting because you implied that the
number of statemented children was low in Newham. Is that right?
Mr Goodey: Relatively low, yes.
Q171 Mrs Dorries: Does Newham have
a higher proportion than other areas of families from lower socio-economic
groupings, would you say?
Mr Goodey: Yes, absolutely.
Q172 Mrs Dorries: And does it have
many parents who have English as a second language?
Mr Goodey: Yes.
Q173 Mrs Dorries: If you look at,
say, Richmond, which has the highest number of statemented children
and appeals to SENDA tribunals, which also has an affluent population
and parents who are able to take their child's case to a tribunal,
would you not say that one of the reasons why there is a low number
of statemented children and the reason why Newham has been able
to close all its special schools is because the highest proportion
of parents come from lower socio-economic groups, with English
as a second language, who are unable to articulate the fact that
they do not want their special schools to close, or, even worse,
are unable to access a SENDA tribunal?
Mr Goodey: All I can say is that,
in our experience, when parents are given a genuine choice, when
there is inclusive provision available, and when there is a culture
of inclusion among teaching staff in the borough, parents do not
want something else. If the placement is working, why would they
want something separate?
Q174 Mrs Dorries: I do not want to
waste my question time answering that, but I can tell you that
it is because 27% of children with autism are excluded from school
at any one time when they are in mainstream. That is one answer
to that. Could I go on to your submission. You have said that
you encounter almost no anxiety from parents about their children
being in mainstream. I find that a really difficult statement
to accept, particularly knowing what we know about children on
the high autistic continuum. Are you including those children
in that statement?
Mr Goodey: Yes, I am. The National
Autistic Society has a good opinion of Newham's provision.
Q175 Mrs Dorries: Hugh, you have
been through the system, have you not?
Mr Payton: Yes, I have.
Q176 Mrs Dorries: Would you say the
SENDA Act 2001 has made the lot of children with special educational
needs better or worse? How has it impacted?
Mr Payton: That is quite a difficult
one. I would suggest it has probably made it more difficult. Looking
at the types of situations of helping parents through the system,
I think it is more difficult now than it was, say, five years
ago. There is no science in that; it is just a gut feeling. I
would say it is more difficult now than it used to be.
Q177 Mrs Dorries: Can you clarify
how it has made it more difficult. Is it more difficult to statement?
It is more difficult to access tribunals?
Mr Payton: I think it is more
that the thresholds of special educational needs have become lower,
and therefore it has become a more challenging environment. I
think it is more that that is the case, if that makes sense.
Q178 Mrs Dorries: Okay. I am not
sure if I should ask this, but I will be rebuked if not. David
Cameron has commissioned a Special Needs Commission. You say that
your vision is that special educational needs should be properly
resourced. The interim findings of this Special Needs Commission
have found something similar, that the whole of special needs
provisions should be taken outside the system and stand alone
and be resourced and managed separately. Would you agree with
the interim findings in that statement? Eirwen, could you just
elaborate on what you mean by properly resourced?
Ms Jewes: That is a big question.
Properly resourced means that there should be experts who have
been trained in the special needs that the children have in the
schools, placed in the schools to look after them and to educate
them. At the moment there are many, especially on the autistic
spectrum, in classes where teachers and helpers and LSAs and SENCOs
have no understanding of autism or what the child might be thinking
and why they behave as they do. If the system were properly resourced,
there would be people in schools and speech therapists and occupational
therapists visiting schools regularly who understood what these
children need and why they are failing in the classrooms. The
problem we have been talking about sits on vested interests. I
do not blame teachers, but teachers do not want to have the pressures
that they have with their other 29 children in a classroom and
then to have two others whom they do not understand. They do not
know what they are thinking, they do not really know what they
are supposed to do with them, and they know that they could potentially
be more disruptive than the other children—partly because
they will not be provided for properly. Teachers, not surprisingly,
just do not want these children there. There has to be a resource
which allows these children to be educated and the other children
in the class also to be educated. I think specialists in special
educational needs being more prevalent in schools would be the
major resource that would be needed. I think SENCOs being professionals
would be a great first starting point for that. On tribunals,
could I say that the issue of tribunals being effective or not
is a little bit of a red herring, because many tribunal cases
should not be heard. The reason that local authorities take the
same cases over and over again, very similar cases over and over
again, to tribunal or to tribunal door is in order to delay the
commitment of the final statement and that is when their costs
start rolling out of their budget. Actually it is a scandal that
most cases even get to tribunal in the first place. Local authorities
know that they will be giving in.
Q179 Chairman: Eirwen, would you
like to answer the question?
Mrs Grenfell-Essam: Most SEN children
are taught by the LSA, who is paid something like £4.50 an
hour, maybe for five hours a day. The child's primary teaching
focus is through that person. They are normally not qualified
in any way, other than having been a parent themselves or just
interested in children. Should that really be what we are providing
for our most needy children, their educational needs, their health
needs?
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