Examination of Witnesses (Questions 820-839)
MR KEVIN
ROWLAND, MS
JEAN SALT,
MS SHIRLEY
CRAMER AND
MS KATE
GRIGGS
15 MARCH 2006
Q820 Mr Marsden: I would quite like
to develop one or two questions about the role of specialist support
staff. If I could start off very specifically with you, Kevin,
on educational psychologists. Would you be able briefly to describe
for us what you see the role of educational psychologists being
in the system? Is it primarily that of assessment or is it that
of child development? There is a lot of talk about a central role
for psychologists working with schools to develop teaching strategies
for children with complex learning needs, but do you think that
role has changed with the changed role of local authorities in
relation to schools in recent years?
Mr Rowland: Yes, the role has
changed significantly, especially over the last 30 years. We now
have special needs co-ordinators within schools, so that has had
a huge impact on the range of work educational psychologists undertake.
Educational psychologists, as you know, work from 0 to 19 in all
phases of education so we have that unique overview of special
educational needs, and also educational psychologists have the
responsibility for reviewing and monitoring children out of authority
and independent schools so we see that big picture. The role has
fundamentally shifted from one that is primarily assessment, if
we look back to the 1960s and 1970s, to one of working collaboratively
within the classroom scenario, bringing the scientific nature
of psychology to bear in practice so we have that link with universities
and we can support the development of action research. We work
with parents so we will make home visits and especially in early
years we would see that as crucial, working with other agencies.
Increasingly, the role is linking with mental health services
and looking at children's mental health, well-being, bad behaviour
within schools, social services departments, where we have been
looking at children's welfare and child protection issues, so
there is a broad range of functions that educational psychologists
undertake.
Q821 Mr Marsden: You are describing
to me a very broad remit and some might say potentially (I am
not saying actually) a very theoretical remit. You also mentioned
the way in which the role of SENCOs has changed and revolutionised
the situation. I would like to bring in one or two of our other
witnesses today on this. I wonder if you felt that there is still
a huge gap between what SENCOs are now expected to do in the new
system and what they are provided with in terms of training, position
in school, and not least money to do it?
Mr Rowland: Part of the approach
of educational psychologists is to develop training programmes
for SENCOs, and there are many examples of those around. Also
I think the practical nature, certainly the role that I would
be familiar with is not theoretical (although we bring theory
to bear on what we do at all times) it is very practical. We are
working with head teachers, working with teaching assistants,
working with parents. It is a very practical approach within the
classrooms, often involved with coaching and developing programmes
for individual children and groups of children and, increasingly,
a new development, if we look at the changing role of educational
psychologists, is networking between schools as schools form collaboratives
and help share and develop practice across schools within neighbourhoods.
So within the new framework for universal targeting and specialist
services, we are certainly providing the universal approach through
teacher training, TA training, and targeted services for individual
children.
Q822 Mr Marsden: Jean Salt, I see
from your biography that you were a SENCO in a large comprehensive
school for a significant period of time. What is your perspective?
Ms Salt: Of working with educational
psychologists?
Q823 Mr Marsden: Yes, but specifically
on the issue of whether or not SENCOs on the ground have got the
wherewithal to do the sorts of things that they are now expected
to do in conjunction with psychologists?
Ms Salt: I relied very heavily
on my educational psychologists where we would share and brainstorm
ideas to meet the needs of children with quite severe specific
learning difficulties and other severe needs who were included
in the mainstream school, but on the work of the SENCO, NASEN
has just done a project with the DfES because we were concerned
that we were hearing that teaching assistants were being appointed
to take on the role of SENCOs, and so we explored that, and we
have come to the decision that while some teaching assistants
are very highly qualified and they can do the administrative and
routine jobs of a SENCO's role, that the SENCO needs to be either
a member of the leadership team and have quite a strategic view
of the school's progress, and then you will get the priority that
special needs needs within the school, or at least they need to
have a direct line manager within the leadership team, which would
probably happen within secondary school. We have found that SENCOs
who were considered to be good at their job were members of senior
management within primary schools but within secondary schools
it varied.
Q824 Mr Marsden: So would it be fair
to say then that you are concerned that the present situation
is not satisfactory for SENCOs?
Ms Salt: Yes, and we have got
a very good set of standards for SENCOs which were produced by
the TDA in 1998 and I am currently on this exemplification group
looking at the classroom standards that the TDA are producing
and we cannot find where the SENCO standards would fit within
that work.
Q825 Mr Marsden: Shirley and Kate,
can I ask you very briefly to comment on that but perhaps take
the discussion on a bit further. The buzz word of teachers and
teaching assistants principally in mainstream schools today in
"personalised learning", and in this place we have,
as you know, the second reading of the Education Bill and part
of that is about personalised learning, but personalised learning
for children with special educational needs is an even bigger
demand than for people with mainstream needs, I would suspect,
so are we actually expecting too much at the moment in terms of
delivering the sort of work that perhaps previously educational
psychologists delivered in schools?
Ms Cramer: I think the issue is
that you cannot expect a mainstream teacher to do everything but
there needs to be somewhere for them to refer children. That is
why the tiered support or the different levels of support with
teachers being able to offer some personalisation, some differentiation
in the programme, but then knowing where to go when the child
needs more, is important, and I think again that is a big gap
in the system right now in many places in that there is not perceived
to be anywhere, and there does need to be knowledge on the mainstream
teachers about where the children could go or what they might
need.
Q826 Mr Marsden: How are we going
to improve that?
Ms Cramer: I think we have to
improve that through training.
Q827 Mr Marsden: There are no shortcuts?
Ms Cramer: I do not think there
are really any more shortcuts and I think that if we want all
children to be included in the mainstream and if we want to have
a good personalised learning programme, then we certainly need
to improve the training.
Ms Griggs: I absolutely agree,
it is totally down to training. We did some research for our awareness
week last year which was covered quite extensively on ITV, and
that found that 96% of teachers feel that they do not have the
expertise to teach children with learning difficulties, and all
of them wanted that training because without that they cannot
help children with specific learning difficulties. It is not a
case of getting a statement or getting time with the learning
support assistant. Unless that assistant has got specific training
in this area they will not make any progress with these children.
That is basically the case. That is the issue.
Q828 Mr Marsden: Kevin, I know you
wanted to come back briefly on that but I wanted to take you on
to another issue, which is the alleged shortage of specialist
staff, particularly educational psychologists. This is something
that Ofsted recognised in their 2004 report, the report on the
contribution of support services, but there was also an Audit
Commission report which talked about a shortfall in specialist
support. Ofsted have talked about problems with delegation perhaps
being part of it. Many of us as individual constituency MPs, certainly
for my part, have experienced parents of children with special
educational needs coming in with some aspect of statementing or
inclusion in school or challenging things at tribunals. There
is a common thread coming out that these things are taking an
awful long period of time because there appears to be a shortage
of educational psychologists.
Mr Rowland: If I can go back to
the previous point I wanted to make. One of the changes that has
occurred over the last 20 years is that the model of service delivery
has moved to embrace a consultative model whereby teachers cannot
always access the training but we can provide continuous support
and consultation for those teachers through visits to schools,
and it is a way of sharing the specialist knowledge needed. In
terms of the shortage of educational psychologists, we have approximately
2,600 psychologists in this country and we have a national shortage
at the last count of 282 educational psychologists. There is definitely
a shortage but also we have got this variation between local authorities.
In "Removing Barriers to Achievement" (2004), Southampton
was cited as having 1.7% of its children with statements, which
freed up psychologists to be able to deliver support to schools,
but also within that authority for every 2,000 children there
was one psychologist. Currently in Plymouth we have one psychologist
for every 4,357 children approximately (0-16 population), so we
have got a variation but there are also major problems in delivering
services.
Q829 Mr Marsden: So is this highly
variable? You mentioned Plymouth and Southampton. My geography
is not that great but they are not that far from each other. This
is not a regional issue, this is an issue where you could have
one local authority who was just about holding their own on psychologists
and one next door where there might be a real crisis. What you
seem to be suggesting—and I do not know what other people
would like to say on this—is that this is intrinsically
linked to the local authority's attitude to the statementing process.
Mr Rowland: It is linked to statements
certainly but also we have a major problem nationally with supply.
If we take an educational psychology training course, we have
figures of 367 applications for 12 places. We are not funded to
train enough educational psychologists per year to meet the demand
and principal educational psychologists throughout the UK will
tell you that the most frequent complaint they will receive is
not having enough educational psychologist time in their schools.
However we try to cover the schools, we will always fall short
of the demand.
Q830 Mr Marsden: Shirley, have you
and your colleagues across the board been lobbying the DfES on
this issue?
Ms Cramer: One of the things we
hear most from parents is how hard it is to get identification
and assessment of any description for their child, so we would
be advocating with the DfES for early identification and that
would involve screening followed by a specific assessment from
an educational psychologist. That is something that parents complain
a great deal about. What has been done in the interim is there
are many specialist teachers who are trained now to do some kind
of assessment specifically for specific learning difficulties.
Q831 Mr Marsden: You say "in
the interim". Are you seeing that as a sticking plaster thing
or something that is actually theoretically a good thing to do?
Ms Cramer: I think it is theoretically
a good thing to do and I think we will see more of it. I think
the BPS has put in the new CCET qualification (Level A course
in psychometric assessment) whereby specialist teachers with qualifications
in specific assessment training will be able to "diagnose"
or to identify dyslexia and therefore that would help the situation
in the shortage of psychologists.
Q832 Mr Marsden: I am not asking
necessarily for your views pro or against but I understand that
the Scottish Parliament and Executive are removing the requirement
for statementing from the process. If we were to take radical
steps in terms of reducing the amount of statementing as part
of dealing with children with special educational needs, would
that have a beneficial impact on the situation or not?
Ms Cramer: The problem is that
although the statementing process is bureaucratic and difficult
a lot of parents hang on to it. You have to be able to put something
in place before you take that away and I think parents and professionals
need to be assured that something is there.
Q833 Mr Marsden: It is not that statementing
necessarily as constituted at the moment is ideal; it is something
that parents feel they can wave at people and get something done
about?
Ms Cramer: Absolutely.
Ms Griggs: Can I just raise something.
We have been doing a lot of work with schools across the country,
but just to give you an example of a primary school we are working
with in Southwark. They have a diploma-trained teacher who can
do diagnostic assessments and so there is then not a need for
an ed psyc in the early stages. They are supporting children now
with very complex learning needs and with very severe dyslexia
without statement because they have the training in school so
that they can pick them up from reception, they can see when they
have got problems, and they can deal with it without it needing
to get to the statementing stage. If the training is not there
and if the support is not put in for the kids, statementing is
the thing that a parent would flag to get support.
Q834 Mr Marsden: Can I say—and
I have to ask you this Kevin—in the middle of what is obviously
a situation where there are considerable problems in the short
term for all the reasons we have discussed, we have got a situation
where the training route for educational psychologists is being
changed, I understand, with a move from a one-year masters as
a diploma to a three-year doctorate. Whatever the long term benefits
is that not in the short term a fairly crazy thing to be doing
when we have a shortage? Surely this is going to mean that certainly
for the short term we are going to have even fewer people qualifying
because you are lengthening the period of qualification?
Mr Rowland: This is an issue that
had to be considered because the knowledge base required by educational
psychologists needs to change to reflect the complexity of the
context in which we are working. We have reduced the amount of
years training from seven to six years so it is a shorter training
route. You are right, I would not agree it is crazy but I think
it is a necessary change and we are having to embrace that change
through a difficult period. I also think everybody is at a sea
change at the moment. We are having to review the number of statements,
how statements are used, the statutory assessment, the number
of professions, SENCOs for instance, on the brink of a change,
educational psychologist are changing so we have come to a Zeitgeist
almost of moving from how things used to be in the 1980s, and
now we are changing so we are in that process of bridging now
and we are all having to work collaboratively. We had to grasp
the nettle at some point, but I do agree that it will bring about
challenges, and the profession is working very hard to see how
we can work with schools to support that change, for instance
taking on assistant educational psychologists.
Q835 Mr Marsden: Can I put this past
your other colleagues briefly for their comment, whether in fact
you are really concerned that this change is going to cause problems
in the short term and do you agree with Kevin's analysis? Are
there other short-term things that could be done, not least perhaps
by the Department (I am not pushing it all on to the voluntary
organisations or indeed educational psychologists) to help this
transition process through? Shirley?
Ms Cramer: I think a promotion
on the proposals around the CCET training, which means that specialist
teachers can identify specific learning difficulties, would help.
It has just started, it is very small numbers, and the funding
of those kinds of courses by the Department might very well help
that. I have been very concerned, as have colleagues around the
country, about the lack of funding for diploma-trained teachers
that Kate had mentioned, who are capable of doing more on the
assessment and identification and helping colleagues in this area
too. In our experience, many teachers fund that training themselves
and we believe that they should be funded to go on those courses.
I think that would help.
Q836 Chairman: Do we need educational
psychologists? You go to schools and some schools say, "Well,
we would rather have the expertise in the schools. We know our
children. With the right trained people in schools, it is a bit
of a diversion having the educational psychologists, and anyway
they are expensive, you cannot get any, and they are changing
and lengthening their training." Some people might say that
is a restrictive practice to keep the wages high. Sorry Kevin!
Mr Rowland: We are shortening
the training from seven years to six years.
Q837 Chairman: How are you doing
that because that did not come in our briefing?
Mr Rowland: The model that used
to exist was three years undergraduate psychology, one year teacher
training, a minimum of two years teaching, a one year Masters,
and now we are undertaking a "three plus three" framework,
an initial degree in psychology plus three years postgraduate
study.
Q838 Chairman: So there are not any
changes to teacher announcements?
Mr Rowland: No. With the postgraduate
studies, almost two-thirds of that will be in schools.
Q839 Chairman: Why is not the Government
willing to fund that?
Mr Rowland: I am not sure that
it has been discussed at governmental levels. There seems to be
some confusion about the funding. The initial training has changed
from what we would know of as the CPD model, which is progressing
as a teacher into an educational psychologist. Just as we have
an initial teacher training course, we now have an initial educational
psychology programme and the funding for that needs to be clarified
and it should be set at a national level to make sure we do not
have national or regional shortages. We are now at a point where
we can finally clarify the funding issue. A model used to exist
of secondments based on local education authorities but that did
not work because some authorities did have teachers train as educational
psychologists and some did not. We are moving now to a fair and
equitable model. The DfES and LGA are unable to resolve those
issues and so at the moment we are faced with no funding mechanism
whatsoever.
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