Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-98)
SIR HOWARD
NEWBY
19 OCTOBER 2005
Q80 Mr Wilson: Is there any funding
in place to help universities with this?
Sir Howard Newby: Not earmarked
funding, no.
Q81 Tim Farron: Overseas student
recruitment is obviously very important for a whole range of issues,
but not least because of the funding of the university sector.
I understand that universities are projecting an increase in non-EU
overseas student recruitment of around 20% and that actually that
will reflect a 44% increase in income. Now, I have in front of
me the UCAS figures for 2005 entry which show not a 20% increase,
but a 0.9% increase in non-EU funding and that masks the fact
that in England and Wales there has actually been a reduction
in the number of non-EU students coming to our universities. The
three biggies appear to be Hong Kong, Malaysia and China where
there have been significant drops in recruitment. This is going
to be an enormous black hole in university finances, is it not?
Sir Howard Newby: Not an enormous
black hole, but, as I said earlier, it is an issue which we are
closely monitoring, especially in terms of those universities
which might have manoeuvred themselves into a degree of dependence
on this income which I would advise, and always have advised,
universities not to do. It is a worrying turn of events. I was
in China in May and I am going back in November. The reasons for
the downturn in China and Hong Kong are mainly due to the fact
that the currencies are tied to the US dollar and we know what
has happened to the US dollar/pound sterling exchange rate in
the last couple of years and it has choked off the marginal demand
whilst of course increasing the competitiveness of American universities.
Now, we all know that students going to America have had their
own visa problems and, although they have been mitigated to some
degree very recently, the visa issue in this country has been
an irritant we could have done without, but I do not think it
has been a fundamental cause of this downturn. It has mostly been
cost, but it has partly been, in the case of China, the fact that
the Chinese university system is of course now developing in leaps
and bounds and Chinese students can now obtain a high-quality
higher education experience in a number of Chinese universities
and of course there is now one English university which has opened
a campus in China, so some Chinese students can study for an English
degree in China without coming to England, so all of these are
factors. It simply points to the fact that although the market
for cross-border flows in higher education is increasing very
rapidly around the world. In other words, the level of student
international mobility is growing very substantially, especially
at the postgraduate level, at the same time that market has become
a lot more competitive. There are many other countries now entering
the international market for students, including many in Europe
who are now teaching courses in English which has been one of
our major selling points and although we just have sustained our
place as the second-largest provider of overseas students in the
world behind the United States, we are only now a whisker ahead
of Germany and our market share is declining, so that points to
two things: one, to redouble our efforts to market British higher
education overseas; and, two, it is a warning to universities
not to become too dependent upon what might turn out to be relatively
short- to medium-term changes in the geography of student demand.
There are a lot of Chinese students coming to this country who
have actually been lecturers in Chinese universities, doing postgraduate
qualifications, mainly PhDs, to upgrade themselves and they then
go back to China and contribute towards the modernisation of Chinese
universities. Sooner or later that flow is going to, if not dry
up, certainly decline.
Q82 Mr Marsden: Would it help if
the Home Office stopped stinging overseas students on their visa
fees?
Sir Howard Newby: Well, yes, of
course it would, although, I repeat, I do not think that has been
the major cause. I think I described it earlier as an irritant
that we could do without. I think the major cause is that if you
put the whole package together, fees plus living costs, being
a student in England is now one of the most expensive, in fact
the most expensive, in the world.
Q83 Mr Marsden: Can I ask you briefly
about the Bologna process which we are committed to and which
is designed to increase portability and accessibility to higher
education across the EU. Now, we are hosting the next meeting
of this in 2007. What is our record on portability between universities
in the UK if we are going to be hosting this meeting in 2007?
Sir Howard Newby: Very mixed.
We are addressing with the sector as a matter of some urgency
the issue of credit accumulation and transfer within the English
system. It is not so much a problem of accumulation, although
there are some issues there, it is more one of transfer.
Q84 Mr Marsden: Sure. It is a question
of one university not recognising another's courses.
Sir Howard Newby: Exactly so,
and that is also what lies behind our initiative on lifelong learning
networks. We have brought together universities and colleges in
a network and one of the things we insist on is complete portability
within that network. That is a start. In some ways regrettably,
we think that is a more practical way forward than to try and
start with a big, uniform national scheme to get all universities
to sign up to. I think that would take forever.
Q85 Mr Marsden: What are you going
to do between now and 2007 and what advice can you offer the Government
on what they need to do to improve our position in this respect?
Sir Howard Newby: There is a very
helpful sentence in the Secretary of State's letter on strategically
important subjects which invited the funding councils to take
the lead on this matter because it was not clear who should take
the lead, whether it should be Universities UK, the funding councils
or indeed the Department, and that is what we have done.
Q86 Mr Marsden: She has lumbered
you with it?
Sir Howard Newby: I think it is
a challenge we rather welcome actually because, as I said earlier,
it fits in with some of our other policies very well concerning
post-16 progression and lifelong learning networks, for which
credit accumulation and transfer are going to be absolutely necessary
to make that work.
Q87 Mr Marsden: A final question
relating to Bologna and overseas students. You referred earlier
to the imbalance in terms of the numbers. Is not one of the problems
also that because of the decline in the number of students taking
languages in UK universities and also some funding mechanisms
and lack of support there has been for that, that makes it more
difficult for UK students to take advantage out of the existing
situation to study abroad or the things in which we are engaged
on the Bologna concept?
Sir Howard Newby: I think it is
widely recognised that we have a problem in this country in language
teaching throughout the education system. We are not very good
as a nation at speaking second languages, whereas they are very
good at speaking second languages and that second language usually
tends to be English. I agree with you that one of the major reasons
why there is this disparity is because of linguistic ability,
although I really would say one of the other reasons is because
we can offer a very high quality higher education experience which
produces an internationally recognised degree in a shorter period
of time than virtually the whole of the rest of Continental Europe.
Q88 Chairman: Some Members of the
Committee are concerned about the way we seem to be sleepwalking
towards Bologna, but we will looking at it in a short inquiry
so perhaps we will have you back on that subject earlier rather
than later.
Sir Howard Newby: I am very happy
to, Chairman.
Chairman: Some of the meetings and from
the meeting I attended as an observer in Prague, I came away deeply
depressed about the uniformity that seemed to be in the minds
of some of the people who spoke there. We are the market quality
leader in higher education and I did not quite see the interest.
Right, we are moving on to postgraduates and I am going to ask
Roberta to ask a quick, sharp question.
Q89 Dr Blackman-Woods: As you know,
one of the areas to which universities are looking for students
overseas is postgraduate research students. What can universities
do to encourage more UK-domiciled postgraduate research students?
Sir Howard Newby: I think this
is best taken forward really through the issue of lifelong learning.
I repeat what I said earlier, more students will want to move
in and out of the higher education system across their lifetime.
Where that will particularly manifest itself is in postgraduate
taught courses, basically, in the jargon of the age, continuing
professional development. A lot of them, as we were referring
to earlier, will be part-time. Some of them will be full time.
It is a growth area. It is one which the sector has put quite
a lot of work into but I think we could do a lot more because
a lot of this comes back to the issue of flexibility of delivery.
A lot of this postgraduate taught course activity could and, arguably
should, be delivered in the workplace as much as in the institution
and certainly I think the days have now gone, fortunately, when
you wanted to do a part-time MA in a university because you wanted
to get up to speed with your particular professional area and
we said, "You can come along at two o'clock on a Thursday
afternoon. If you can't do that, sorry." Fortunately, those
days are gone but we do need to do a lot more both in the universities
engaging—
Q90 Dr Blackman-Woods: They are taught
courses. My question was really about research students.
Sir Howard Newby: Well, the research
councils have done a lot to increase the level of postgraduate
research student stipends to make that stepping stone a more attractive
one to the highly talented pool of students that we want to attract
into a research career. There are areas, of course, where even
those increased stipends are probably not sufficient and where
there is quite a fierce competition from the private sector to
employ either bachelors or masters students at far higher salaries
than they could command doing a PhD. Both the research councils
and ourselves have done to lot to establish a research career.
We have done a lot to establish that students are properly trained
in research before and while embarking on a PhD. Of course, we
have also done a lot to invest in research facilities in universities
to make sure, as far as we can, that the conditions under which
they are working are very attractive as well.
Q91 Dr Blackman-Woods: The numbers
are still declining.
Sir Howard Newby: The numbers
are still declining. There is a decline overall. It is almost
entirely accounted for by a decline in science and technology
subjects. I am sorry to harp on again about that, but that is
because it reflects the decline in undergraduate student numbers.
Elsewhere the numbers have held up and of course in terms of overseas
postgraduate research students they have increased, which is a
good sign in some respects, although again issues were referred
to earlier about the mix between home and overseas students, which
in some subjects is quite skewed.
Q92 Chairman: Sir Howard, why is
Oxford lagging behind Cambridge in that respect? The difference
is quite marked in the things we have seen. They are six times
more effective in keeping students and attracting students for
postgraduate work. I read here: "Cambridge University has
44% more postgraduate research students than second placed Oxford.
A graduate from Cambridge is six times more likely to proceed
directly to a research degree programme than the average graduate
in an English institution." Why can we not do more in the
Cambridge way across the university sector?
Sir Howard Newby: I think that
is a question you should address to the Vice-Chancellor of the
University of Oxford.
Q93 Chairman: Something is seriously
going wrong in Oxford.
Sir Howard Newby: I would suggest
to you that for a long time there have been discussions in Oxford
about the balance between undergraduate and postgraduate student
numbers. I think the colleges in Oxford have been particularly
assertive in their desire to keep up the number of undergraduate
students and not move as fast as Cambridge University has done
into the postgraduate student market. I think the new Vice-Chancellor
would like to change that state of affairs, and of course we will
await to see whether he is successful. Because the relationship
between the university and the colleges at Cambridge is a little
different to that at Oxford, Cambridge has moved far more quickly
and more extensively into the postgraduate market.
Q94 Chairman: I had a discussion
recently with Alison Richard, who is the Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge.
They see the real competition, and as you say they are the market
leader, as with the top research institutions in the United States.
They get very bright undergraduate masters students who because
of the overall financial package offered for research get snapped
up quite quickly, and at Cambridge they are trying to give a better
financial package earlier on rather than bits and pieces that
gradually accrete over a period so that by the time the full offer
arrives in a place like Cambridge they have taken the Harvard
option. Is there anything you can do to spread that kind of practice?
Sir Howard Newby: I think we have
always tried, most notoriously I suppose through the research
assessment exercise but more generally, to first of all focus
resources for research and for research training on the highest
quality departments. We have also of course in a very general
sense advised universities to identify their strengths and focus
on them rather than trying to do everything. It is the case that
the research market, including the research training market, is
the most international, and increasingly so. A highly talented
student, especially I would say in the science and technology
area, is very well aware that they are highly marketable across
the world in the leading institutions. I am not convinced that
the factors you refer to are entirely financial, however. Students
gravitate towards where they think they can get the best support
and training from their supervisors and the best facilities, as
long as they can get by financially. I think the nub of the issue
you describe about the contrast between Oxford and Cambridge is
that the University of Oxford through its constituent colleges
has been rather more ambivalent about the desire to expand postgraduate
numbers, which is a university matter, rather than undergraduate
numbers, which is a college matter. That level of ambivalence
has not been present to the same extent in Cambridge over the
years.
Q95 Chairman: At the heart of this
is there not a real problem with university salaries? You are
the brightest student in your year, you go on and you do a PhD.
You then publish articles and you start around the low £20,000s
as a young lecturer. You finish up at the top of the grade not
much between £50,000 and £60,000 a year. The competition
out there for bright people offers enormous salaries in comparison.
How long can we carry on with this fixed salary across the piece
for highly qualified professors? Should there not be a market
where we pay the going rate?
Sir Howard Newby: There is a market
now. There is only a professorial minimum, no maximum. It is a
matter for universities to determine their own salaries.
Q96 Chairman: But the average professorial
salary is low, is it not?
Sir Howard Newby: It is indeed
and it is a particular problem in those areas where there is fierce
competition from the private sector. Classically that would include
areas like law and economics and so forth but increasingly now,
as we all know, there are large numbers of science graduates who
are snapped up by City institutions in particular. One would expect
that the market might find its own level but that is going to
take quite a long time and one does worry long term about whether
or not higher education is attracting what I would call its fair
share of the best and the brightest compared with other sectors
of the economy. Of course we are facing a demographic change in
higher education populations so by the end of this decade we will
see increasing numbers of academic staff retiring because of the
expansion in the 1960s working its way through and the fact that
they will need to be replaced. It is very very important for this
country that they are replaced. We do not want to grab all the
best people but we do want our fair share of the best and the
brightest to make sure this higher education sector is going to
be as good in 20 years' time as it is now, if not better.
Q97 Chairman: We want to talk briefly
about post qualification access. You know that we have had a conversation
about this over a long period of time and many people believe
and have given evidence to this Committee that post qualification
access would be a great advantage to children from less privileged
backgrounds. There seems to be entire agreement amongst the higher
education community that that is the case. Recent research seems
to have really questioned that. Is that the case, Sir Howard?
Has the whole argument for post qualification access been turned
on its head?
Sir Howard Newby: I am not entirely
convinced that the argument for post qualification access rests
upon the widening participation issue. Let me say that straightaway.
Insofar as it does—I wonder? One would have to take a view
on whether were universities to know, as they would under a PQA
system, the achievements of the students before making a decision
on admissions, that would that lead to more or fewer students
from poorer backgrounds entering those universities which already
have a disproportionately small number of students entering those
universities from those backgrounds. It has been a consistent
theme in the last hour or so the extent to which things going
on in the schools system have implications for entry to higher
education. The Committee might want to think through whether or
not, if we are dealing in, let us say, to keep it simple, A-level
scores, and universities knew what the A-level scores were rather
than those that were predicted whether this would increase or
decrease the number of widening participating students, if I may
call them that, entering those universities which are currently
under-performing in that regard. Because if university admissions
tutors were admitting solely on the basis of A-level grades, which
of course they do not do now and never have done, but might come
under increasing pressure to do so in the future since those grades
were indeed public, we might find ourselves in a situation in
which fewer widening access students were entering the universities
which are under-performing than they do now. It might be something
that the Committee wants to think about.
Q98 Chairman: All finished? All happy?
All content? Sir Howard, it has been a privilege to have you here.
I think because of the Bologna inquiry we are going to have you
back. I am sure you are delighted that you are going to be back
sooner rather than later.
Sir Howard Newby: I am quite happy
Chairman, I enjoy these occasions.
Chairman: Thank you very much for your
attendance.
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