Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180
- 186)
WEDNESDAY 30 NOVEMBER 2005
CLLR ALISON
KING, CLLR
JAMES KEMPTON,
MR STEPHEN
MEEK AND
MS CHRISTINE
DAVIES
Q180 Chairman: It is something that
is strange because you have had quite a go at Academies not having
this role but we leave grammar schools out there in a special
category, do we not?
Ms Davies: Yes.
Q181 Mr Chaytor: Does the same argument
apply to faith schools? Many Anglican or Catholic primary schools
admit children of all different faiths because they happen to
be living on the doorstep, why does the same principle not apply
to Anglican or Catholic secondary schools who exclude children
who are living on the doorstep?
Cllr Kempton: As far as local
government is concerned, you will get a variety of views about
these issues. We are free to give our personal views, but we would
not necessarily have an LGA position. What we would want to be
clear about is if there was a looked after child in the locality
who was maybe a Roman Catholic, we would expect them to go to
their local Catholic school and for that to be secured in the
same way as if they were in the locality we hope they would be
secured as a first preference a place in their local community
school. It is about making some of those pragmatic but realistic
choices in relation to these issues. What we hope is that for
all schools that are maintained by the state, there is clarity
about what their admissions arrangements are. What we fear is
exactly the point you are talking about, that when you move to
a different number of admissions authorities you will get different
criteria creeping in, and that is exactly the thing we want to
avoid. Whether or not we think that the status quo is acceptable,
what we do not want to see as we get more admissions authorities
is the diversity of admissions arrangements increasing.
Q182 Chairman: Time is running out.
Can we bounce on to you one last short question and one rather
big one. Are you worried about the implications in terms of ownership
of property, land, that seems to me to be rather unclear in the
White Paper?
Cllr King: If I can answer that
because my authority is going through two very substantial PFI
bids for schools because we are changing the age at which children
transfer from primary to secondary, bringing it down to 11—it
has been 12—and we are doing away with middle schools. We
have used a 25 year PFI project in order to enable us to bring
in the necessary capital for the new buildings and facilities
and so on and so forth. I do not think schools ever anticipated
that the responsibility for this would rest with anybody other
than the Local Education Authority, as it was at the time that
this was all going through. I think that some local authorities
have indicated to schools that they will have to pick up the revenue
costs of their PFIs through their own budgets, which will probably
have shaken some schools rigid. Given the choice, and a lot of
authorities give schools the choice already about how they run
their premises and so on, a lot of them choose to stick with the
local authority and have some sort of pooled property arrangement
because they do not see the role of the school or the governors
as running their own facilities management. The two things go
hand-in-hand. Some schools may welcome this with open arms, it
very much depends on the individual school. As a representative
of a local authority that is about to have a very long lasting
PFI project go through to its conclusion, I have significant concerns
about whether we are going to be forking out for 25 years. We
might have thought to deal with it rather differently had we thought
all schools were going to be encouraged to take on their own responsibilities.
Ms Davies: Right at the end of
the White Paper it does suggest that where trust schools, for
instance, take on the ownership of land and assets, if those land
and assets are subsequently to be released, they are released
back to the local authority.
Q183 Chairman: But schools wheel
and deal and buy and sell.
Ms Davies: Absolutely. I think
where your point is very well made, and there is a real danger,
is in Building Schools for the Future because that is self-evidently
a local authority-wide scheme and there is an affordability gap,
there are financial liabilities. It would not be in the local
authority's interest to invest significantly in transforming secondary
schools to be left with a financial liability which it cannot
afford any longer because the resources are elsewhere. It is absolutely
critical that within the regulations the financial liability rests
with schools where schools have chosen to become trust schools
and consequently own their land and assets.
Q184 Chairman: I want to get my big
question in and it is the very last question, I am afraid, because
I am enjoying this session very much. What aspects of the White
Paper do you think have got to be in the legislation? What is
your priority? What should be in? What needs to be in?
Cllr King: What needs to be there?
I am very concerned about the issue of choice and producing real
choice. I am very concerned about the issue of admission and,
as has been said by colleagues, the issue of the leverage that
we have as local authorities on schools in order to achieve improvement
in attainment levels and staying on levels and all those things.
Because I have been around a fair amount of time with the LGA
dealing with the children's legislation and Every Child Matters,
I am particularly concerned that we do not create a structure
that is going to make it even more difficult for us to deliver
the integrated services to children and the improvements that
will bring because some of this White Paper does not actually
address those sorts of issues. We lobbied very extensively, as
I am sure you will remember, Chairman, for the duty to be laid
on schools to co-operate as it has been laid on so many other
bodies to co-operate.
Q185 Chairman: Schools and GPs.
Cllr King: GPs are self-employed
so it is a difficult situation, but we are expecting health to
be firmly on board in the broadest sense. I would hate us to see
at the end of this legislative process anything put in place which
is going to make our job more difficult. It will not just be our
job, it will be the outcomes for children and young people which
will not be as good. I do not want us to replicate the difficulties
that have been created in the past by gaps in the system and by
so many people being responsible in their own little separate
areas not coming together to work for the same people, because
they are all dealing with the same people. For me, that is one
of the most important features of this. We have had a lot of legislation
involving services for children and young people with a wonderful
vision at the end of it but, please, do not let the legislation
that comes out of this process be a stumbling block, it must be
legislation that makes the delivery of Every Child Matters
a reality. Schools, because they deal with every young person,
are an integral part of this, a key part of this, and we do not
want anything to be put in place which makes that a more difficult
situation.
Cllr Kempton: What I would like
to see is a clear commitment to ending the DfES's stranglehold
over schools rather than local government's stranglehold. I would
like to see a clear commitment to school autonomy in that, but
that is also about autonomy not just from local government but
from DfES. We are very comfortable with our role as providers/champions
for children and parents and we want to make sure that the schools
are properly autonomous. I would also like to see clarity about
the autonomy over how schools deliver the outcomes, not whether
they deliver the outcomes. Clarity on those points would be really
good. Alison has raised the issue about fair admissions and that
has clearly got to be there, but I would also like to ensure that
there is real accountability and if we have trust schools—I
prefer not to move in that direction—they have clear accountability
to the local community. Finally, I would like to sort out the
confusion of the 14-19 agenda because I think that will not deliver
for young people. Clear strategic leadership within local government
rather than the LSC or shared leadership will be the thing which
transforms those staying on rates at 16.
Ms Davies: There are three areas:
we have talked about admissions; duty to comply with the code
of practice; the duty to work with the local authority and other
schools to ensure that all children have a school place. The Every
Child Matters agenda is critical. I agree with everything
that Alison said. There is a duty in the White Paper to promote
community wellbeing and positive race relations. We would like
to see that duty extended, that all schools should use their resources
to secure the five outcomes of the Children Act and work with
the local authorities and other schools to meet the needs of all
children in their area. My final plea would be around the language
that surrounds all of these debates. We should stop talking about
independence and talk about self-managing schools, but the emphasis
should be on co-operation and all taking collective responsibility
for children and young people. We all need to improve the language
that surrounds local authorities, there cannot be any complacency.
The language which suggests that local authorities have a stranglehold
on schools is extremely damaging. It is untrue and it is lowering
the level of morale and the capacity of local authorities to deliver
the complex agenda that is being set out for them.
Q186 Chairman: It has been an excellent
session, we have learned a lot. Thank you very much for giving
of your time. I am sorry about the long bells and some of my colleagues
who had high questions in Question Time had to leave a little
early. Thank you, again. Your first response that we had was written
very close to the publication of the White Paper, if you are going
to reassess that after your consultation closes, can we have a
copy of that as early as possible.
Mr Meek: You can have something
today.[1]
Chairman: Perfect. Thank you for your attendance.
1 Not received. Back
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