Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240
- 245)
MONDAY 5 DECEMBER 2005
SIR ALAN
STEER, MR
STEVE MUNBY
AND MR
RALPH TABBERER
Q240 Chairman: Is there anything
you would be worried about if it was included in the Bill that
comes out of the White Paper or, indeed, anything that would be
lost between now and then?
Mr Tabberer: I think we should
all keep an eye on the local authorities' role with regards to
the Every Child Matters agenda, the Integrated Children's
Services. I think as the Bill goes through, if we talk about local
authorities working in more of a commissioner role, we talk about
school freedoms. I think the Every Child Matters agenda
is a strength for local authorities. I am a great advocate of
local authorities, we are one of the few agencies that funds posts
directly in them because we work well with them. Keeping that
in sight as this goes through is very important indeed.
Mr Munby: Picking up Ralph's point,
there have been some major challenges for school leaders of the
Every Child Matters agenda and the Extended School agenda,
as many of them move towards multi-agency leadership rather than
just leadership of teachers and other providers too. I think that
is a big challenge for the next few years.
Q241 Chairman: What do you think
of the multi-agency leadership?
Mr Munby: Already we have children
centres which are working with children of nursery age which are
multi-agency: with health, social care aspects, as well as educational
aspects. Already we are seeing more full service schools and campuses
develop with a range of provisions, not just education, on the
same site. It is throwing up new ways of looking at what leadership
should be. If it is mulit-agency, it is not just education. The
role of the traditional head teacher needs to be looked at and
I think that is a major challenge of the White Paper.
Q242 Chairman: You mean they are
not trained to be managers, it is a rather different job. You
do not have to be trained, as Sir Alan said, because there is
no compulsion.
Mr Munby: We need to look at what
skills set is needed for multi-agency leadership compared with
the issue of just the educational setting. That is the first issue.
The second issue is that the White Paper throws up the need to
focus on schools in most difficulty and in the most complex situations
and make sure that we get the best leaders into those schools.
I think that is an important step forward and I welcome it. We
are going to create and identify national leaders of education—that
is in the White Paper—but they would only get that identification
as leaders of the system if they are prepared to demonstrate that
leadership in our most challenging environments. Again, we need
to make sure that our best leaders are in those schools. That
is another challenge of the White Paper. The third challenge of
the White Paper is the 14-19 area and how we work in partnership
with a range of other providers and non-educationists to meet
the needs there. The fourth challenge is succession planning,
which is flagged up in the White Paper. We need to build on beyond
the next generation of school leaders to ensure that we are going
to carry on having that high quality leadership which we have
developed over recent years.
Q243 Chairman: Is there not a worry
though, you are responsible for school leadership, that if a bunch
of people with not a lot of help and advice appoint the wrong
school leader that could mean the closure of your school under
present circumstances?
Mr Munby: It is the most important
decision the governing body ever makes.
Q244 Chairman: Are they competent
to make it?
Mr Munby: In some cases yes and
in some cases no. I am glad to say the White Paper does ask the
National College to work with chairs of governors and local authorities
in providing advice to heads and governing bodies on succession
planning and recruitment.
Sir Alan Steer: I do think head
teachers need to be trained, very much so. Perhaps it may be interesting
to finish the discussion with a couple of questions. One is, which
I think is fascinating, how are schools going to change in the
next five years to deliver Every Child Matters? At the
moment the debate is absolutely on the aspirations, which I have
never met anybody say other than they are great. I think how schools
are going to structurally look different in the next five years
in order to deliver it is a challenge to the profession. The question
which I think is really fundamental to the Behaviour Report, is
that I have yet to meet anybody who says other than that Elton
wrote a brilliant report in 1989. The interesting question is
then why did we need a different group and why was it not more
effective? That is a really interesting question. How do you take
the ideas through and make them happen? How do you change a culture?
I have been doing some presentations and what I always say is
that the task of the profession is to redefine what we mean by
professionalism, begin to see professionalism less as individuality
and more as collegiate, working together to support each other
and achieve that consistency that Dr Tania imposes on her three-year-olds.
I do recommend the programme; it is well worth watching.
Q245 Chairman: Some of us are addicts
as well! Sir Alan, Steve Munby, Ralph Tabberer, it has been a
pleasure to have you give evidence to us. We have learned a lot.
We would like to remain, certainly with the two wingers there,
in touch with you on a number of questions. Sir Alan, it is more
sinister, you are close enough to London to receive a visit from
the Select Committee.
Sir Alan Steer: You would be most
welcome. Take it as an invitation.
Chairman: You might see us on your doorstep.
On your way home, if you think there is something that you did
not say to that darned Select Committee, do e-mail us or write
to us. Thank you.
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