Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
MR CHRIS
BANKS AND
MR MARK
HAYSOM
7 NOVEMBER 2005
Q1 Chairman: Can I welcome Chris Banks
and Mark Haysom from the Learning and Skills Council; Chris particularly
because I do not think he has batted on this particular pitch
before. Mark is becoming an old regular here; have you had two
sessions?
Mr Haysom: I think so.
Q2 Chairman: You still have the scars.
Chris, welcome indeed. How long have you been chair now?
Mr Banks: Just over a year.
Q3 Chairman: I was just saying how
Committee business was rather interrupted by an unfortunate event
called the general election and then a recess, so that is why
we have not seen you before now. Welcome indeed. Would you like
to make a short opening statement before we get going?
Mr Banks: Yes, thank you very
much, Chairman. Thank you for this opportunity, relatively early
in the life of the Committee, to discuss this agenda which is
of real national importance and vital to the success of the country.
It is really good to be able to report there is some great work
going on, some real significant progress being made, and at the
same time there is a huge amount to do and some real challenges
ahead. The LSC, Mark, the team and I are focused on delivering
for employers, individuals, young people and adults; making a
reality of the Government's priorities; ensuring that we can give
as many, if not all, young people a great start; and providing
that sort of platform for employability that adults need, as well
as becoming increasingly critical to the success of business and,
indeed, progress of individuals as well. Within that we are directing,
as you know, more of our public funds towards the priorities and
providing real strong leadership to the post-16 sector via agenda
for change, which you know a little bit about, and importantly,
within that, the development of our own organisation to do its
job brilliantly locally, regionally and nationally which is what
we have to do. Finally, I am a businessman. That is my day job,
if you like. I got into this because I have seen the impact of
a shortage of skills and qualifications, particularly among those
not in work, because I have been involved for a long time with
what was the New Deal Task Force and more recently the National
Employment Panel. That is really where my interest in the skills
agenda and the Learning and Skills Council was born. I have also
seen the positive impact then that acquiring those skills and
qualifications can have both on productivity and on the progression
and development of individuals and the beneficial effect that
has on people socially as well. Those are, if you like, the two
prime drivers and they really do inform so much of what we and
I do within the LSC. I am looking forward to this opportunity
of discussing with you some of the progress and, indeed, some
of the challenges over the next few minutes. Thank you.
Q4 Chairman: Thank you very much
for that. Can I open the questioning by asking you a question
I asked the Secretary of State last Wednesday: what is the point
of the Learning and Skills Council? Why do we need you?
Mr Banks: In a way, I may have
touched on some of that, Chairman. In a sense, we are balancing
the needs, wants and aspirations of employers and individuals
locally, regionally and nationally with priorities that the Government
has as well for achieving the productivity, competitiveness and
personal fulfilment that individuals and we, as businesses and
a country, need.
Q5 Chairman: Why is that so necessary
post-16, when the Government seems, according to the White Paper
and policy of progression over a number of years, to be moving
to a situation where it does not want any real intermediary between
the Department and schools? In a sense, that lack of intermediary
is a hallmark of the present Government's policy. Yet when we
get to 16, we need quite a large bureaucracy that uses a great
deal of taxpayers' money to deliver post-16.
Mr Banks: I would prefer not to
say too much about pre-16 because it really is not my area.
Q6 Chairman: You take the parallel?
Mr Banks: I do. I think the key
thing here is this is not about intermediaries and policies, it
is about making things happen locally and regionally and then
adding it up to achieve these targets. That is the bit that only
the LSC can do to join that one up.
Mr Haysom: May I add to that,
Chairman, if I can. A useful way of looking at this is purely
at the local level. I think the job of the Learning and Skills
Council is to look across whole communities and to work with all
the providers of education to make sure there is the right kind
of curriculum mix, the right kinds of opportunities across a whole
area. Our job is to try and make that happen and to do it, as
Chris is saying, on behalf of employers and learners. I think,
in a sense, that is one of the things the White Paper is talking
about as a job for the LAs as a commissioning role on behalf of
parents in particular. I think there is a useful way of thinking
about it. We come at this very much from the angle of the employer
and from the learner. It is our job to look across the whole rather
than on an institution-by-institution basis and to make sense
of it. As we all know, it is a fairly complex world, and we are
at the point where we are trying to take all the input to the
providers to come up with the right kind of curriculum mix for
those individuals.
Q7 Chairman: Is it not a rather overcrowded
world, in the sense that we have the Regional Development Agencies,
we have all sorts of other people involved, we have the new Sector
Skills Councils? There is a lot of other people trying to deliver
high quality training post-16, is there not?
Mr Haysom: I do not think they
are there to deliver, are they? They are there to do specific
jobs within what is a complex system, there is no doubt. We are
there, I think, to be, in part, the interface that takes all that
information, that knowledge, those inputs and then takes that
to the supply side and, as I say, tries to work with colleges
and other providers to deliver what is right for learners and
colleges.
Mr Banks: The Sector Skills Councils
are a really good example, I think. If they are successful, and
at the LSC we need them to be successful, then we will get a really
good articulation of what businesses need that is specific to
their sectors. Then we will have something we can work with, working
with the people who are able to provide learning and training.
I have chosen to sit on the board of our Sector Skills Council,
which is the Food and Drink Sector Skills Council, Improve, I
put myself forward for that, if you like, to see the power of
that interface and to make it work on behalf of our industry.
It has a galvanising effect among those businesses within the
sector. Of course they are relatively small organisations and
they are not there to deliver, they are there to articulate what
employers need and the better they can do that via the sector
skills agreements and other mechanisms, the easier it is for the
LSC to make sure that the provision that does happen on the ground
meets their needs that are specific to those sectors. Although
it looks complex, of course, if you are a business or a large
employer, there is only one sector skills council or one Learning
and Skills Council to deal with. In a way, our job is to try and
make it as simple as possible. It is a very complex world and
there are lots of people who are able to articulate how difficult
and complex it is. We see our job as being partly about trying
to make it as simple, effective and efficient as we can and by
being able to look locally, regionally, nationally and by sector,
we are in a unique position, I think, to be able to do that.
Q8 Chairman: Do you not set yourself
up to be the Government's whipping boy or girl? That is the truth
of it, is not it? Everyone blames you. The Department tells you
to make cuts in a particular area; it is very convenient for the
Government because people go around saying nasty things about
the Learning and Skills Council rather than the Secretary of State
and her Department. Is that not part of your job?
Mr Banks: Ultimately, they are
our priorities. We have said, "This is where we are going
to be spending the money", and they are agreed with the Government
and we are responding to the needs of businesses and individuals.
We have to own them and take, if you like, the criticism that
goes with making some pretty tough choices.
Q9 Chairman: How independent are
you, Chris? How often do we hear the LSC taking on the Government
saying, "Come on, the Government is telling us to do this.
We should not have to do this. This isn't in the best interest
of the sector we represent." Are you not really part of the
Department for Education and Skills rather than a vigorous independent
champion?
Mr Banks: We are non-departmental
rather than part of the Department, but I sense—and again
Mark might want to comment on this—from where I see it,
this is about agreement on the best way forward and on the tough
choices that we need to make. Our job is then to make sure that
what happens on the ground literally with individuals, colleges
or other providers and employers all adds up to meet the overarching
objectives. I do not shy away from that. I think these are the
choices and the prioritisation that we think we should be making.
Q10 Chairman: Chris, that is terribly
consensual, and I am very much in favour of consensus when you
can get it because it moves policy in the right direction. How
often do you have to go in to the Secretary of State, bang on
her desk and say, "Over my dead body will this occur"?
Where is the passion when you go in as an independent body and
say, "Look, what you are telling us to do in cutting the
number of staff . . .", or take another issue of the number
of cuts you are doing to adult education, ". . . this won't
do, Secretary of State, and if you push me any further, I'll go
public or I'll resign"? I never see that side of that muscularity.
Mr Banks: It might be worth Mark
talking a little bit about how that plays out in practice, but
there is a good robust discussion on most of these issues, Chairman.
Mr Haysom: I think it is unlikely,
Chairman, that we will ever fall out on a regular basis publicly,
because I think that the way it should work, and is going to work
well, is we do go in with passion and argue on behalf of the whole
system. To make it work and to have the relationships of trust
that we can go forward on, I think that is probably best done
across a table rather than through newspapers, and we do. If I
can come back in terms of the cuts to staff, because I do not
want that to rest, that is nothing to do with the Department saying,
"We want you to do this". It is everything to do with
us saying, "We think this is the right thing to do. This
is the way forward. This is what we want to do and it is our agenda".
Similarly with agenda for change more widely, which I hope
we will have an opportunity to talk about, that is very much the
Learning and Skills Council developing the agenda, working with
people right across the sector, saying, "These are the issues.
These are the issues that we need to work on. These are the things
that are going to make a real difference. These are our solutions
and we are going to get on with them". I simplify it because,
as Chris would have it, there will be some robust discussions
along the way. That is very much the way it works.
Q11 Chairman: I better move on before
my colleagues get rebellious. If your job is raising the profile
of skills in this country, why is it when you come and appear,
nobody from the press bothers to turn up? We are not on television;
there are no journalists sitting over there. In the time the LSC
has been going, why have you not raised the profiles of skills
to such attention that at least somebody turns up to report what
you have to do? What is your budget now?
Mr Haysom: £10.6 billion.
Q12 Chairman: No press; nobody cares.
What on earth is it? I know we have a pretty awful press and the
BBC is getting worse in terms of coverage, but why is it this
room is empty of media?
Mr Haysom: As you know, Chairman,
I have spent my life working in newspapers, so I am better qualified
to talk about why they are not here than anyone else. This is
an agenda which is incredibly difficult to get people engaged
in. It is not just us working at this; we have been talking already
about the Sector Skills Councils who are investing heavily and
doing the same thing. It is a tough challenge, but anything you
and the Committee can do to help us on that, we will be delighted
with.
Chairman: It was on a lighter note that
question. Moving on to adult learning and Gordon is opening that.
Q13 Mr Marsden: You talked in your
opening remarks, Chris, about priority and you have just said
to the Chairman now that you set the priorities, and therefore
I want to press you a little on the current priorities. We have
got, have we not, a demographic time bomb in this country with
skills and with adult learning in particular. There have now been
three parliamentary reports: the NIACE Report, the All-Party Further
Education Lifelong Learning Report and indeed the National Skills
Forum Report, which came out last week, all of which said the
demography of skills is going to be revolutionised in the next
15 years, there are going to be far fewer young people and far
more older people. Yet you have signed up to a programme that
beyond level 2 effectively is going to reduce opportunities for
adult learners across the piece. How do you feel about that? Is
that not a rather short-sighted approach?
Mr Haysom: This is a very difficult
area, as I think we all know. Just before I answer the question,
can I correct something I just said? I said £10.6 billion,
I should have said £10.4 billion for the years 2006-07. I
just want to correct that to make sure it is accurate. In terms
of the priorities and focus, it is very much on young people,
adults, basic skills and level 2. I think it is one of those situations
where you have to say, "Well, where else are you going to
start?" in terms of this huge challenge that we have. It
is very difficult, I think, to argue against those priorities.
We have to give young people the opportunity to succeed. I do
not think I have ever come across anyone in the sector who would
argue against that. We have to address the huge skills-for-life
issue that exists across the country and we have to focus on giving
adults skills for employability. Level 2 is a kind of proxy and
a starting point for that. No one is saying that we should be
reducing provision beyond that point. I think the discussion there
is about who pays and the balance of payment between the individual,
the employer and the state. We have seen continued growth not
just in terms of level 2 activity but also in terms of level 3
during this period. It is not true to say that we are pulling
away from that wealth of adult education.
Q14 Mr Marsden: No one underestimates
the amount of effort, time and, for that matter, money that the
Government has put into this sector over the last few years. Are
you not being a bit disingenuous in assuming that all of this
other activity will go on regardless, as you radically, as is
the case, reduce the amount of public funding going into adult
learning at the moment? We have a situation where we know already
from the Association of Colleges and from various other independent
sources that on the back of this decision many courses up and
down the land are being closed. You mentioned sector two—I
raised this with the Secretary of State last week—The
Guardian report that because the LSC has cut your childcare
support funding by 25% that many people who are doing up to level
2, particularly women, women from an ethnic background and women
who are unskilled, are no longer able to take up those courses.
Those are not blue sky things for the future, those are actual
real cuts now that are going to affect some of the priority groups
that you are currently outlining.
Mr Haysom: Forgive me, I did not
think I was talking about blue skies. I do recognise and we obviously
recognise the challenge in all of this and what we are doing is
focusing on those priorities for the reasons I have just said.
That does cause a lot of our colleges to have some very difficult
decisions to take about provision and support. The overall budget
for adults, just so we are clear about that, is not reducing.
What is happening is that we are having to move towards those
priorities, as I have described. The impact of that is, as I say,
some very difficult choices about those courses which are not
directly contributing to those targets.
Q15 Mr Marsden: I understand that,
but the Chairman has just said to you now why are you not in there
banging the desk and you have given an eloquent explanation as
to why these things are best done in private rather than in public
with the Department. But presuming you accept—if you do
not accept it, please say so—the seriousness of the demographic
challenge over skills in this country over the next ten to fifteen
years, you are laying out a programme of activities which is going
to have or could have medium and long-term consequences, why are
you not banging the table now, and saying to Government, "Look,
chaps and chapesses, we know that you have put a lot of money
into this, but really if you insist on us cutting back in adult
learner support in these areas, you are going to have big problems"?
Mr Haysom: What we are doing is
moving funding towards those things which are going to help us
with the demographic challenge that you talk about. I think that
is going to become a bigger and bigger issue as we go forward.
It is something I am sure Chris would probably want to talk about
as well. We are moving things in that direction, we are moving
things away from those courses that are not demonstrating progression,
that are not moving people towards employability skills, and that
is the truth of that. As far as the learner support is concerned,
we have had some very tough decisions to make. The total learner
support funds are increasing if you look at it in the round but
there are some specifics we have had to deal with that have reduced
some of the learner support that we have been given. No one pretends
those are easy things to do. We have to do some of those things
and focus on those resources.
Q16 Mr Marsden: If they were an easy
thing to do, presumably you would not be in the position you are
and be paid the amounts you are paid. You say, "Well, we
have been looking to address these various issues", and then
just referred to some of the courses not being priority courses,
but the evidence is coming in from all over the place that some
of the courses that are being cut are not, if you like, peripheral
courses, they are absolutely essential courses, some of the union
learning rep courses, for example. If you are satisfied—I
am not satisfied, but if you are satisfied—that your current
strategy is not going to disadvantage some of those key targets,
what are you going to do to monitor what is going on in the colleges
to make sure that there are not cuts taking place on the back
of your strategy which are going to hold this country in terms
of the skills agenda over the next 10 to 15 years?
Mr Haysom: I think that is a really
good question.
Q17 Chairman: A long one!
Mr Haysom: That is exactly what
we have to do. As part of our remit, it must be to do that, to
work with all the colleges, and other training providers—it
is not just about the colleges—to make sure that they are
delivering the right kind of provision for people across the piece.
We have those conversations with them all the time. If we come
across examples where a provision has been cut that contributes
to targets and is essential in an area, then you can imagine those
are going to be fairly robust discussions.
Q18 Mr Marsden: Will you give this
Committee a commitment today you will monitor over the next six
to twelve months the effects of these existing cuts that are being
reported in the colleges and you will come back to this Committee
with your conclusions?
Mr Haysom: Yes, indeed. I would
be delighted to do that.
Q19 Mr Marsden: One of the big issues,
and it is related again to the issues of both the groups you have
identified and the groups we have been talking about, certainly
in my neck of the woods in Blackpool, is the concern about getting
small and medium-sized enterprises involved in the skills agenda.
What will your priorities that you have established under the
new funding regime do to assist that?
Mr Banks: I think that has been
a very useful conversation because it has identified one of the
real challenges. I think the view we have taken is we have to
get it right for young people because that is a new start and
we have to get that right. I think, as Mark was saying, the focus
of the investment in adults is being prioritised more towards
those things which we believe will give adults a better longer-term
prospect which is of employability skills which we shorthand as
level 2. That is the thinking behind that and one of the first
comments I made was around being led by the needs and wants of
businesses or employers as well as individuals and balancing those
two off. The employer training pilots that we have been running
in 20 different areas around the country have been very successful
in identifying, particularly for smaller businesses, learning
and training opportunities which are good for the individuals
concerned, in that they are high quality, result in a good qualification
and are good for the businesses as well. I think in the pilots,
and keep me honest if anybody knows a better number than this,
I have a recollection that the employer/small business—and
most of these are small businesses—satisfaction with the
training and learning which has been going on under the Employer
Training Pilots is over 90%. So that is a good example of where
we have been able to put in place a programme which meets the
needs of businesses, which they can see a benefit from and which
delivers high quality learning and training to the individual
as well, delivered very flexibly to fit in with their normal life.
In the coming year, 2006-07, there is a significant increase in
the focus on what is not going to be called a pilot any more but
the Employer Training Programme which will be national and which
will enable us to provide something like another 150,000 high
quality learning opportunities for individuals, the majority of
whom will be working with smaller businesses.
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