Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
MR CHRIS
BANKS AND
MR MARK
HAYSOM
7 NOVEMBER 2005
Q80 Mr Chaytor: How many Strategic
Area Reviews recommended the establishment of academies?
Mr Haysom: Again, I am not sure
that is the way that we should quite look at this. We work incredibly
hard to make sure that academies, where they are proposed, add
to the provision that an area requires. We will be talking in
detail with the academies' unit to see how we can make that academy
plan fit within the provision that is required by learners and
employers.
Q81 Helen Jones: Does that mean none
of them recommended? Does that answer mean none? Is that a long-winded
way of saying none of them do?
Mr Haysom: I am sorry, I was not
aware I was being long-winded, I apologise.
Chairman: You were not long-winded.
Q82 Helen Jones: You were if you
were just saying none. Is it none?
Mr Haysom: As I have just said,
I am not aware of any making that recommendation. It does not
mean that some have not been recommended through that process
but I am not aware of any, sat here now.
Q83 Chairman: Mark, I have never
known you be long-winded. Before you move off that, just very
quickly, some people, if there were any media here or if we were
on television today, might look at this hearing so far and say
"When are they going to talk about real skills, something
I identify with". Did any of these inquiries, coming from
the regions, come up with real problems, shortages? When you came
here last time a lot of people were obsessed by the shortage of
plumbers and electricians, do you remember that?
Mr Haysom: I do indeed.
Q84 Chairman: That seems to have
moved away, to some extent. One member of our Committee—who
we miss a great deal from St Alban's—made it a great campaign,
I recall. Out of all this people we represent would like to know,
in your view, is the Learning and Skills Council terribly worried
that some skills we vitally need for the future are not there
and which are they?
Mr Haysom: That is exactly what
we are doing at a local and regional level all the time. We are
creating real things, bringing real skills to the area.
Q85 Chairman: When I asked you which
was the lowest performing region, you were very reluctant to say
which was the lowest.
Mr Haysom: Only because you trapped
me last time, Chairman.
Q86 Chairman: I did not, you offered
that information. It was not a trap. You are not long-winded and
I do not trap people. The fact of the matter is when you put some
real meat on this, okay if there is not a national problem with
plumbers and electricians now, is there a real problem that this
region in London is not going to be able to have the skills for
the Olympics in London? All these reviews, did they come up with
anything which said "There is an emergency here, we have
got to do something"?
Mr Haysom: Absolutely, that is
what we have been busy doing. London and the Olympics would be
a classic one, the Thames Gatesway is part of that whole issue
as well. One of the really urgent things that we have to tackle—not
just in London, in fact this is a countrywide issue—is in
construction skills and that is why we have invested massively
in construction skills and creating additional provision all over
the country. I have had the joy of going around opening some of
those brand new centres that we have created as a direct result
of the work we have done.
Q87 Dr Blackman-Woods: I am sure
you will be aware that in some regions there have been disagreements
between the local LSCs, the regional LSCs and the RDAs about the
priorities for regional skills training. Do you think that the
concordat that you signed in July of this year with the DfES,
DTI and RDAs is going to solve those disagreements in practice?
Mr Haysom: I am not aware of huge
disagreements in many regions. I think there has been a significant
amount of progress achieved over the last year or two in bringing
all of those things together. Do I think concordat on its own
is going to achieve that, well I guess it is helpful, is it not,
in spelling out how we are going to work together, and certainly
I will be supportive of that. I think it is the relationships
on the ground that have made the biggest difference over the last
couple of years. When I arrived in this job, frankly, I was horrified
at the amount of time that I had to spend, and a lot of other
people had to spend working within the LSC and in other bodies,
arguing about structures and how things should work. It did seem
to me the most unproductive thing that we could be doing when
our jobs should be to get on and make those structures work. I
think there has been significant evidence and significant progress
achieved over the last couple of years in doing just that, I really
do.
Q88 Dr Blackman-Woods: If you said
there were not disagreements, I think they were and there was
evidence, particularly, in the lack of focus in terms of some
regional skills strategies, but have we cracked that now with
regional skills partnerships? Should that enable the identification
of regional skills training to be better and to be more focused?
Mr Haysom: Yes, it should. As
I say, I think we have moved on very significantly on this. The
LSC's job is not just to deal with the regional priorities, what
we have to bring to the party is a really clear understanding
of the sector priorities. I think we also have to have an increasingly
important job at city level and city region level which brings
me back to the partnership teams we were talking about previously.
Mr Banks: If you are saying is
there a commitment within the LSC to make the regional skills
partnerships work and to make sure the sum of what we do delivers
on the skills element of the regional economic strategies then
the answer is absolutely. The process that we are going through
to build our capacity within the LSC to operate at the regional
level as a real agent of change in a sort of leadership role within
the regional skills partnership is designed specifically to ensure
that we are able, if you like, to pull off that trick of doing
what is right locally, but in a context that when you add it up
delivers what the region needs as well.
Q89 Dr Blackman-Woods: I think I
was partly asking what is your assessment of how well regional
skills partnerships are doing at identifying the needs for regional
skills training. It is building on Barry's question but at a regional
level. Are they being successful, are they being focused and if
I can add in another question, in terms of prioritisation are
they looking more to national level or regional level and are
they looking internationally, where is the competition going to
come from? There has been mention of that earlier and that is
something which really concerns me because I represent a constituency
in a region that could be doing better in terms of economic output
and we do need to look towards the international competition.
Is that informing the skills strategy? I am trying to find out
where the balance is?
Mr Banks: The North East is one
I can also feel very familiar with for business reasons. It seems
to me here that the regional skills partnerships are all at a
different stage of development, that is always the answer. It
is very difficult because we remember when people used to describe
the LSC as patchy, it was always very difficult, which are the
good bits, which are the bad bits. The Regional Skills Partnerships
we believe have the potential to do that, to bring together the
RDAs who are, increasingly in my view, real strong partners with
the LSC. I do think whereas it took us at the LSC some time to
get ourselves organised to be able to be really good partners
at the regional level I think we are now in a much better position
to do that, and that relationship is working better. Those discussions,
you are right, have to be informed by both, and the trick we have
to pull off is which is local, regional and national within a
context which allows us to compete internationally. You are absolutely
right, for those of us who are involved in the market sectors
which compete internationally, that is the competition and the
benchmark, I agree.
Q90 Dr Blackman-Woods: Can I move
on to a slightly different topic. Levels of participation in education
at 17 are still quite low in comparison with OECD countries for
this country. We have talked a lot about structures this afternoon
and I would like to hear you say something about whether the change
in structures or agenda for change is going to get at some
of the cultural problems which underpin that low participation.
Are you confident that is being addressed?
Mr Haysom: I think we made some
pretty good progress in terms of increasing participation of young
people. We are still behind and you are right to focus on an issue
of 17, because I think there is a specific there. You will know
from a conversation we had very recently that I have particular
concerns about your part of the country, as I know you do, so
there is a huge issue there. We are not going through structural
change ourselves just for the sake of our health, we really are
not. This is all about getting ourselves in the best possible
shape so that we can deliver the change for the learner and for
the employer, that has got to be what it is all about. That is
what agenda for change is all about, it is shaking things
in the system that people within the system have been concerned
about for some time which are just getting in the way of the whole
sector moving forward. I quoted some examples earlier, and I will
give you one again. If we make the funding methodology so complex
that a huge amount of the attention of a training provider goes
in just managing that funding system then there is something horribly
wrong, is there not, because they should be thinking about what
is right for the learner, what is right for the employer and they
should not have resource tied up doing that, they should be focusing
that resource in the frontline. Things like that I really do believe
will make a big difference as we go forward and the more we can
do that kind of thing to simplify the system, I think the more
learners and employers will benefit.
Q91 Dr Blackman-Woods: You are confident
it is going to improve then?
Mr Haysom: I would not be doing
it if I did not believe it is going to make a difference. Do I
think it is all that needs to be done? Absolutely not, I see agenda
for change as it is currently as a starting point.
Q92 Dr Blackman-Woods: Just one thing,
Chris, you said earlier about relying very much on Sector Skills
Councils to articulate the needs of that sector. How successful
do you think they are currently at doing that? Are you able to
work successfully with them if they do not articulate those needs
properly and how do you know that?
Mr Banks: That is a really challenging
one. I think the answer to that is the sector skills agreements
which have been written by the SSCs that started earlier have
been really useful in informing our decisions about provisions.
I think there are some good examples of Sector Skills Councils
that have been around a long time, equally a lot of them are past
embryonic but they are still establishing themselves. The view
that we have taken is that it is our job to ensure that we work
closely with them and help them in whatever way we can to build
that articulation of what employers need. At the same the LSC
is not solely reliant on the Sector Skills Council, we do have
direct contact with a very large number, particularly of the bigger
national employers, where we are having a much more strategic
discussion and dialogue with them than we have ever had before.
Historically those relationships with large employers have tended
to be on a transaction basis around apprenticeships or basic skills
or whatever. We are moving to a more strategic discussion with
them about workforce development within key sectors. I think that
do element, which is within the LSC, known as the National Employer
Service, which is a group dedicated to doing that, is the flip
side of the employer training programme I was talking about earlier
which is where we provide that support to the smaller business.
I think on an individual company by company basis we are starting
to have the right dialogue but clearly it will be very helpful
to us if the SSCs can be sharpening the focus on what really counts
across sector as well.
Chairman: It will be very nice if you
and the Sector Skills Council at some stage said "Look, these
are the real needs of skills, this is where if you are going to
be looking for a job in three or five years you should be moving
towards" so that young people in this country, and older
people who are retraining, get some focus and some sense of direction.
That was a comment. Some of my colleagues have been extremely
patient, there is a lot of interest in this, Tim?
Tim Farron: I will be quick. It is following
on those remarks, and also the Chairman's earlier probing about
meeting the needs of employers. I just wonder if you would comment
on the obvious fact that lead-in times often for the provision
of new qualifications—validation, accreditation, marketing
and then delivery—can be really quite lengthy. Having worked
in higher education myself and with colleagues in further education,
I know sometimes that can be deemed as a badge of honour.
Chairman: This is supposed to be a quick
question, Tim.
Tim Farron: It will be a quick question
when I get to it.
Chairman: No, you will get to it now,
what is the question!
Q93 Tim Farron: What are you going
to do to assist accrediting bodies and lead bodies to ensure that
they can make sure the courses they offer are still fit-for-purpose
by the time they get taught?
Mr Haysom: I think this is a huge
area for us to talk about, and I am not sure we are going to have
time today. It is a question of qualifications and their relevance
for employers as represented by the views of Sectors Skills Council
is a very important one going forward. There is work being done
on that. Personally I would like to see that work move a lot more
quickly. I would like to see the decisions being much more under
the control of Sector Skills Councils when they are ready to take
those decisions about what is right for employers and individuals,
I think it is very important. The specifics of how long it takes
to introduce a new qualification, I guess I could answer a little
bit wearily about the number of qualifications that there are
existing in the system and the fact that there are already too
many for learners and employers to understand.
Chairman: We are on to Section 4, and
I want to call on Nadine to open the questioning on this section.
Q94 Mrs Dorries: Chairman, I do not
think David realised he was doing it but he asked most of the
questions on this section. He talked to you about the remodelling
of your workforce and the Skills Strategy, so you have answered
all those questions. I have got one, given that all my questions
have been asked. Chris—I came from business to politics
too—you talked about the interface that the Learning and
Skills Council has with the employer. I am having trouble getting
my head around that because I do not quite know why employers
would go to you or why you need the interface with employers.
Historically, supply and demand has always sorted itself out.
If there is a sheet metal company in an area, the sheet metal
workers will follow. I am not quite sure why the finance that
you are using to interact with employers could not be better used
to give a hundred kids in Barnsley training courses. It just seems
a bit "jobs for the boys"ish to me.
Mr Banks: I am not going to comment
directly on that, I am sure you will understand why! The majority
of the interface with smaller businesses is through brokerage
and through other intermediaries rather than direct with the LSC.
Our job is to make sure—
Q95 Mrs Dorries: But you still pay
for it.
Mr Banks: —that employers
can get what they need. I will now speak as an employer. Throw
me three balls and I will drop them all; throw me one and I will
catch it. I think it is really important to try and make this
system as easy to navigate as possible, particularly for the smaller
business which does not have its own in-house HR department or
very often its own training manager either. We have to find ways
of enabling them to engage with the system and get what they need,
and we cannot assume they will all be able to do that. I think
for the larger businesses they need to talk to someone about their
business overall, some of them do, and I would not say every large
business does but if you are a national organisation do you want
to have to go and talk to 20 or 30 different organisations that
are all local and of course the answer is no. You need to be able
to have a strategic discussion with people about workforce development,
about the contribution that they can make and we can make to building
the productivity. That is what the national employer service is
about. It is a relatively small group of people, but it is a very
important strategic discussion.
Q96 Mrs Dorries: I would argue that
with you because if a small business needs to go to you to talk
about how they are going to get the training, they should not
be operating as a small business, they are not fit to. With a
large business, the larger organisations, do they really need
to go and sit down and talk with somebody about how their workforce
develops? It seems like a waste of money.
Mr Haysom: What they need, surely,
is the confidence that the right skills are being developed for
them to be able to recruit those people over time. There is a
significant amount of research which we can share with you, which
I am quite happy to organise to share outside of this meeting
which demonstrates there are massive skills gaps around the country.
There is a developing issue and we have talked about the ageing
workforce and the demographics that take us in that direction.
There is a massive issue there as we go forward. What we are doing
is making sure that we understand what it is that employers are
seeking to achieve in terms of the skills that they need and those
skills are changing very fast and the competition is not now local,
regional or national, it is global. We are working incredibly
hard with all of the training providers to make sure they are
responding to that need.
Q97 Mrs Dorries: I have got a Center
Parcs village moving into my constituency and the local university
is now running courses on tourism. Did they really need the Learning
and Skills Council to tell them to run those courses on tourism
or would the market have just adapted to the areas being more
tourist-orientated anyway?
Mr Haysom: We would not have told
the university to do that anyway because universities sit outside
of our responsibilities.
Q98 Mrs Dorries: If they can do it
and adapt their courses for the way the needs of the area are
changing, why would it be necessary for you to be there?
Mr Haysom: Let us look at it this
way, let us imagine it was colleges that were responding to that
and putting on courses—
Q99 Mrs Dorries: I think it is actually.
Mr Haysom: —would we really
want every single college to say "Ah, there is an opportunity,
let us all pile in, let us all invent different courses, let us
all try and work with that same employer, let us all try and take
advantage of this new thing" or would we want to sit down
across a community and say "how do we deliver what that employer
wants in a way that makes sense for that employer." I have
to say that is the experience pretty much everywhere, where there
is a major new investment such as that, the employer does welcome
the fact that what we are able to do is work with all the providers
to come up with an offer which is absolutely what they want rather
than a free-for-all which is a duplication and a waste of public
money. That is just one example, we can give you many, many more
but I am happy to share some of that outside this meeting.
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