Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360-379)
MR MARK
FISHER, MR
DAVID HUNTER
AND MR
TERRY WATTS
9 JANUARY 2006
Q360 Jeff Ennis: I wonder if the
witnesses could begin by describing the relationship between the
Sector Skills Councils and the SSDA and working with the LSC,
both at regional and local level and if there are any differences
there or nuances that you need to draw to the attention of the
Committee?
Mr Fisher: Fundamentally, the
UK is one of the few places that has both sectors and regions.
Most countries either have a sectorial approach or a regional
approach, which gives us some interesting tensions. One of the
key issues for us as a network is to deliver through the regional
tier, through Regional Development Agencies and the Regional Skills
Partnerships and that requires us to have an active presence in
every region and, of course, also in Scotland, Wales and Northern
Ireland because we are a UK-wide body. That has proved to be quite
difficult for us to manage, to make sure we engage in all those
places, but we have to be because that is where decisions are
made about skills.
Q361 Jeff Ennis: Do you see that
as a hurdle that you have had to jump over?
Mr Fisher: At the moment, to be
honest, to me it does feel a bit like a hurdle. Our job is to
ensure that sectorial priorities are what happens. If a Sector
Skills Council has got a Sector Skills Agreement which reflects
what the needs of its employers are, our job is to ensure that
is implemented UK-wide. At the moment, we need to negotiate that
through the RSPs and through the devolved administration. We are
very happy to do that, but it does require a lot of negotiation
and being present in all the places, meetings and all this other
stuff, to get it through. On the other hand, the Government has
a regional focus on enterprise and development and you need to
balance those two things.
Q362 Jeff Ennis: Obviously, I think
if we are going to be successful in training it has got to be
at a local level. We have already had a number of questions from
Gordon about the need for flexibility at a local level I am wondering
if you feel that the LSC have enough latitude to direct funding
where it is needed at the local level?
Mr Fisher: I do not think there
is enough flexibility to meet the needs of employers everywhere.
Mr Watts: There is a challenge
which comes with the local level as well because if you are an
employer in one area, you may have an office somewhere else and
you do not recognise you are in a different region because you
do not notice that you are crossing a border. From a funding perspective,
you could be on the other side of the world. There are barriers
that cause that. From an engagement perspective, certainly I and
my colleagues would welcome the regionalisation of the LSCs—there
are nine regions—because you can at least get around nine
regions, getting around 47 LSCs to try and influence their spend
on behalf of employers in their area is very, very difficult to
do.
Q363 Chairman: They have got a regional
structure now.
Mr Watts: Yes, they do and we
are beginning to see that kick in and that is welcomed, but you
still have to engage with a local level for the spend. It is very
important that spending is done locally so that you can meet the
needs of the local employers, but it also needs to be flexible
enough so an employer in one county 10 miles away does not miss
out on the training that somewhere else gets just because of their
postcode.
Q364 Jeff Ennis: Do you think the
local and regional LSCs are unduly constrained by existing national
targets?
Mr Fisher: I think our view is
that greater flexibility would be really helpful in terms of reaching
the genuine needs of local employers and what the Sector Skills
Agreement is actually saying.
Q365 Jeff Ennis: Obviously we have
got 25 different Sector Skills Councils and some have been established
over a longer period than others, some are very new. Are all the
SSCs up to speed yet and functioning appropriately?
Mr Fisher: They are not all functioning
at the same level, some are really very new. We only recommended
the licensing of government skills before Christmas, so that is
the last of the 25. They are at very different stages of development
and obviously one of the tasks of the SSDA is to bring them all
up to a consistent level of performance. That is going to take
us a little while, but some of them are improving very quickly
and I am quite pleased with them.
Q366 Jeff Ennis: When do you think
they will all be up to speed then? What sort of timeframe?
Mr Fisher: One of the key products
is the Sector Skills Agreement and at the moment the time they
have rather inherited since it is not going to be until some time
in 2007 whereby we have 25 Sector Skills Agreements and we will
try to accelerate that if we possibly can. I think if we are really
going to deliver for employers, we have got to bring that timetable
forward.
Q367 Jeff Ennis: Is an impediment
to national UK plc, whatever you want to call it, the fact that
not all the SSCs are functioning as they should be at the present
time?
Mr Fisher: Obviously I would prefer
it if they all were fully functioning and fully deployed and I
think one would be in a better place to respond to a whole set
of things which are happening at the moment but, in a sense, we
are where we are. Our job is to bring them all up to speed now
and I am just glad that we have got 25 in place.
Mr Watts: I am fairly new, only
four or five months in the Sector Skills Council, but my SSA will
be ready by next September, so we can accelerate things where
we need to.
Q368 Chairman: Have you got enough
new blood in these SSCs? There are a lot of recycled people. Terry,
I am not talking about you, but there are an awful lot of recycled
people, just change the name and the same personnel are there.
Have we got enough vigorous new entries coming into these SSCs?
Mr Fisher: I am pleased by two
things. One is that the chief executives of the councils are a
genuine mixture of people. A lot of people come out of the employment
sectors for which they are working and obviously some people have
been in training for quite a lot of time, but there is a good
mixture. I am even more encouraged by the level of serious employer
engagement on the boards of these councils, which is obviously
the real power, and the authority and the chairman. They do represent
a really serious cross-section of the top levels of those particular
industries, and I think that is what is going to drive success.
Q369 Chairman: We want to cover questions
on qualifications to finish the session but one quick last question
on this section. A lot of small and medium enterprises, a lot
of people, including Members of this Committee, when they look
at the whole network of skills in one region, let alone in the
UK or England, find it very confusing. If you look at just Yorkshire
and Humber, my region, at the number of organisations that are
dedicated to doing something on skills, not many people understand
what they are doing, what is different between one group and the
other, how they interrelate. As one of your tasks, have you ever
thought about an organogram for people like us and people like
SMEs so you can track who does what and who relates to what but,
incredibly importantly, where you start when you want help?
Mr Fisher: One of the things I
did when I was thinking of applying for the job was I put "skills"
into Google which turned out to be a big mistake given the number
of different bodies that came out. Yes, employers desperately
need help through the number of bodies and how they access help,
funding, support and training. A key role for Sector Skills Councils
is not only to give coherence in terms of what employers want
but also to present a coherent face of the system to employers.
A number of the councils are very deliberately trying to put themselves
between employers and the whole edifice and say, "You talk
to us, we will deal with all the wiring behind" and that
might be one successful way through it.
Q370 Chairman: But you cannot give
the Committee an organogram?
Mr Fisher: We can try. Certainly
we can try.
Chairman: We very much wait with bated
breath for that. Two quick issues on qualifications.
Q371 Helen Jones: The Government
has gone down the road of setting up these specialised diplomas
at 14-19 rather than following the route Tomlinson recommended.
How keen are employers, in your view, to get involved in the design
of these diplomas? Do they have enough knowledge of the system
which is being set up?
Mr Fisher: I am very pleased that
the Sector Skills Councils are being given a lead role in terms
of helping design those diplomas with the employer voice as part
of that structure. There is enough knowledge within the councils
to help the employers through the technical issues and the specialist
issues to do with the design of diplomas and qualifications. A
number of councils are really working very actively now on diplomas
and qualification reform. The proof of the pudding will be in
the eating. I am encouraged so far by the engagement we have had
and the amount of employer engagement there has been.
Mr Watts: Employers see it as
a route of careers advice, if you like, because young people do
not come into manufacturing, not because they would not have a
good time and earn lots of money and have good careers but because
they do not know about it and they read that manufacturing is
in decline, but the four million people working in all areas of
manufacturing are still doing quite well. It is a good way for
young people to be exposed to different industries at an early
level rather than having to wait for anecdotal stories or things
they see on TV and stuff like that.
Q372 Helen Jones: A question for
David: do we have an appropriately trained and skilled workforce
to deliver these diplomas? Bearing in mind the difficulties we
have already heard about in FE in keeping people up-to-date with
skills, we are going to need to deliver proper training to youngsters
down to 14. Do you think we have the right skill mix to do that?
Mr Hunter: I am really glad you
asked that question. We have had considerable discussion with
the various elements of the DfES, the skills side, the vocational
education side and ourselves with the Training Development Agency
for Schools. We are working on a joint plan and a draft has just
gone in today. This will be the starting point of some cohesion
between the skills sector and vocational education in the training
of the workforce. I am more confident about the FE side even though
in construction skills and areas like that there is a definite
deficit, something like a 30% shortfall, we reckon, on the staff
that we will need. We are working with CITB construction skills
and we will be working with the Department in having a recruitment
campaign to bring people into the sector for the latest skills,
et cetera. We all know the difficulties there but we are seeking
to deal with that situation immediately.
Q373 Helen Jones: Can you tell me
how you will do it because in certain areas, for instance, why
should you come into education and training when you can earn
a lot more by practising your own skills outside?
Mr Hunter: Absolutely, but there
is another side of the coin of people who do want to make that
change. We have never had a recruitment campaign for our sector
as a career of first choice. We have seen very successful campaigns
from the police service and social care, et cetera, on a national
basis that have brought in quite a lot of interest. We will see
what comes but we are hopeful that we will be able to make up
that deficit.
Q374 Mr Chaytor: Can I ask Mark a
quick question about the Sector Qualification Strategies. Does
every Sector Skills Council have to produce one of these?
Mr Fisher: Every Sector Skills
Council will produce a Sector Qualification Strategy.
Q375 Mr Chaytor: By when?
Mr Fisher: We are still discussing
the timetable with the Department.
Q376 Mr Chaytor: How will that work
or mesh with the Framework for Achievement work?
Mr Fisher: Again, we are in discussion
with QCA and the Department about how all of these various issues
dock together.
Q377 Mr Chaytor: At the moment it
does not mesh?
Mr Fisher: There is a great will
to make it mesh, we just need to sort the meshing.
Q378 Mr Chaytor: What about the 14-19
Implementation Plan that was published just before Christmas?
Does that not pre-empt some of the work that might be done by
the Sector Qualification Strategies?
Mr Fisher: Yes, except of course
the Sector Qualification Strategies are far more than just 14-19,
potentially they go into HE and all over. The 14-19 is a component
of the whole. We have got more work to do to get that all glued
together. It is essential that we do that because qualification
reform is one of the biggest things we can do for employers and
the most visible thing we can do. If we had vocational qualifications
that met the needs of employers as opposed to the jumble we have
at the moment that would be a huge step forward.
Q379 Mr Chaytor: Lastly, is there
an agreed view amongst the 25 SSCs about the Tomlinson recommendations
that the Government has half adopted?
Mr Fisher: I do not think there
is an agreed view. I do not think we have an agreed view on that.
Chairman: Can I thank you very much,
Mark Fisher, David Hunter and Terry Watts, for what has been a
very stimulating session. We would like to remain in contact with
you, of course. I do not think you are able to get on a tube today,
but whatever conveyance you are on, if you think of something
you should have told the Committee, please be in contact with
us. Thank you very much.
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