Examination of Witnesses (Questions 225-239)
YVETTE COOPER
MP
25 JANUARY 2006
Q225 Chairman: Welcome. Thank you for
coming along and making time to come and talk to us. I would like
to start with the Code for Sustainable Homes, on which we took
evidence, among other things, last week. Both oral and written
evidence suggests that the majority of people feel that the voluntary
basis of the Code is a severe weakness, that it is not going to
work, that most builders will not comply with a voluntary code,
those who do will go for the absolute minimum and not for the
gold standard. Would you like to comment on that?
Yvette Cooper: We were clear that
as part of the response to the Barker Review we wanted to set
out a series of environmental improvements as well. One of those
was the Code for Sustainable Homes. We should be clear about this,
this is not a replacement for building regulations, so in addition
to the Code we also of course need a statutory framework of obligations
which builders need to follow and which will continue. I think
the additional benefits from the Code are first of all that it
is something where public sector investment will reach higher
standards than the level set out in the building regulations,
so we have said that from this year the housing corporations'
funded investment in new social housing as well as English Partnerships'
funded and other public sector funded buildings will need to comply
with Level 3 of the Code. That means you will have additional
benefits on top of building regulations. Secondly, I think it
is right to offer a voluntary code which we will monitor and we
will keep under review in order to provide the building industry
with a way in which to improve standards without further regulation.
Thirdly, I think it provides the direction of travel for future
improvements to building regulations. So I think it gives greater
clarity to the building industry about where we will want to head
with building regulations in the future. It provides on top of
the statutory minimum which has to be achieved through building
regulations and it says, "These are the directions we want
to go in, whether it is around water, whether it is around energy
efficiency" and so on, and demonstrates what can be done
and allows the building industry to set off in that direction
rather than wait for the statutory building regulations process
to catch up.
Q226 Chairman: How are you going
to monitor compliance with the Code?
Yvette Cooper: Obviously those
buildings which do comply with the Code will want to get the recognition
of complying with the Code. Clearly it actually helps as a benefit
in terms of marketing a property to be able to say, "These
properties are compliant with the Code", so that is relatively
straightforward. I think this is something we are going to be
looking at in some detail, the ways in which to do it. It is relatively
easy when you are talking about public funded properties but what
we want to do is discuss with local authorities the way in which
to do it with new developments which are taking place in the private
sector.
Q227 Chairman: We talked to two of
the more responsible builders last week who said there was not
a great deal of public interest in whether buildings comply with
the Code or not, but what you have said suggests you do not yet
know how you are going to monitor in fact?
Yvette Cooper: On the first point,
I think there will be greater interest in it. I think it is probably
right there is very limited interest in it at the moment, but
bear in mind we will be introducing the Home Information Packs
which will include information on the environmental standards
in terms of the buildings. So there is going to be far more information
available to people about what the environmental sustainability
is of their homes, and there is growing interest I think in all
of these issues. It may well be right that the builders are saying
they are not getting that interest at the moment, but my prediction
will be that in five years' time it will be rather different.
Your second point was, do we know exactly how we will review,
we have not got detailed proposals set out but we will work with
local authorities to do that.
Q228 Chairman: So it will be a voluntary
code which many people think is inadequate and the Department
will not know how to monitor whether anyone is actually obeying
it anyway?
Yvette Cooper: It will be obvious
whether they are in terms of public sector funded ones, because
they have procedures in place already. Also if builders are choosing
to comply with the Code there will be benefits for them for doing
so and they will get credit for doing so. First of all, there
are considerable benefits in having a code in addition to building
regulations—this is not a substitute for building regulations,
it is in addition to building regulations. Secondly, there are
ways of monitoring it and reviewing it which we will develop once
the Code is in place.
Q229 Chairman: The problem does not
arise with the companies who want to show off they are complying
with it, the problem arises with the companies who are not complying
with it. If they are aware, as they must now be, there is no system
under which ODPM can monitor this in the foreseeable future, they
have a free ride for the time being.
Yvette Cooper: Except for the
fact that actually local authorities grant planning permission;
local authorities have discussions about new developments at every
stage. There are all kinds of ways in which we can look at keeping
track of the use of the Code and the development of the Code.
I think you are exaggerating the case.
Q230 Chairman: In the case of building
regulations, would you like to say a little about the way in which
approved inspectors monitor compliance with building regs?
Yvette Cooper: The building regulations
obviously have been in place for some time and we are keen to
improve the compliance with the building regulations and improve
the training for building regulations. Systems are in place. We
are increasing the standards of building regulations and that
means you need to have up-dated training for compliance, but we
think there is further work which needs to be done. Local authorities
do take this seriously but there are variations in practice across
the country.
Q231 Chairman: Is that why the Environment
Agency told us that over 30% of new homes do not comply with building
regulations?
Yvette Cooper: I think there are
two reasons why there are problems with compliance with building
regulations. The first is that there are variations in the level
of compliance in terms of the monitoring which takes place across
the country. The second is that the way in which we do building
regulations frankly needs to be improved. The traditional way
of doing building regulations is that it is done on a kind of
alphabet basis, so every few years there is another bit of the
alphabet, another section of building regulations, which gets
up-dated and changed. So from the point of view of the building
industry there is always another bit of the regulations which
is about to be up-dated or has just been up-dated and changed.
Under those circumstances, therefore, you get less compliance
than if the Building Regulations are updated in a more systematic
and consistent way over time. So there are two things that we
are looking at. First of all, we are trying to link in a better
way the way in which we revise different sections of the Building
Regulations rather than doing them in an incremental way. The
second is to link the Building Regulations better with the Code
for Sustainable Homes. This is where I think the Code for Sustainable
Homes could improve compliance with Building Regulations because,
as I have said, it sets out the future direction of Building Regulations
improvements rather than amendments to Building Regulations simply
coming out of the blue and, therefore, making it something that
is just challenging for the building industry to keep up with.
Q232 Chairman: Emissions from buildings
are a significant part of the overall problem of rising carbon
emissions. At what point would the ODPM be prepared to consider
redrafting the Code and giving it a mandatory basis if indeed
it appears that people like the WWF are anxious that it does not
represent any advance at all, in fact it may even be a step backwards?
How willing are you to consider that if it looks as though we
are not making progress here?
Yvette Cooper: The approach you
would take to improving the mandatory standards would be to raise
Building Regulations. So you have a system of statutory standards
in place and the question is at what pace you increase those standards
and over what time period. The idea is not to replace the Code
itself and to turn the Code itself into a statutory standard but
rather to raise the standard of Building Regulations over whatever
time period in order to keep up with progress in the Code.
Q233 Colin Challen: When you said
that it is a credit to builders who obey the Code, how is that
credit banked? Why do they do it? Obviously some of them want
to do it. We have heard that 30% do not even comply with existing
statutory regulations. Can they bank it in terms of higher house
prices? Can they bank it in terms of better loan conditions from
building societies? Do consumers recognise that they are buying
a house from a better builder? How do you think they earn credit?
Yvette Cooper: You mean what is
the benefit to them?
Q234 Colin Challen: Yes.
Yvette Cooper: I think over time
consumers will take this more and more seriously. You have seen
a change in attitudes to something like recycling which is very
different now to what it was 10 years ago. I do not think that
we have had the same sort of debate about housing and about environmental
standards around homes that we have had around something like
recycling.
Q235 Colin Challen: Are you waiting
for a process of osmosis or are you going to force it along?
Yvette Cooper: I think it is starting
to take place. One of the things that we are looking at as part
of our review of existing buildings and the sustainability of
existing buildings is how you promote that kind of debate among
the public and how you raise people's awareness. My prediction
would be that awareness will change and increase over time in
the first place.
Q236 Colin Challen: Is there empirical
evidence that shows that is what has happened in the past with
consumers?
Yvette Cooper: I think consumer
awareness of a whole range of environmental issues has increased
substantially over the last 10 years.
Q237 Colin Challen: What about on
housing specifically?
Yvette Cooper: We have not got
there yet on housing. Given the rising awareness in a whole series
of other areas, I think that you would expect this to happen in
housing as well, but I would agree that we need to do more to
make that possible and that is one of the things that we are looking
at with Defra as part of the review of existing buildings. Your
second point was really about what incentives there are for builders,
whether there are financial incentives and so on. Sometimes it
will be reflected in higher prices, although from the point of
view of the consumer, you actually have reduced bills and reduced
energy bills for a lot of these kinds of improvements further
down the line. There is a separate question about whether there
should be further incentives to comply with the Code and that
is one of the things that we are looking at across government
at the moment.
Q238 Emily Thornberry: The two builders
we heard from said that they had hoped they would be able to have
environmental add-ons and so on. Their evidence was quite powerful
and I suppose it makes a certain amount of sense, which is that
when people buy a new home they buy everything they can with the
money they have available. If they were offered something as an
add-on extra then people would say, "No, I would rather have
the extra bedroom." They were essentially saying, "Our
hands are clean. We have got the best will in the world. It's
the public's fault." If we are not going to make this Code
in any way compulsory, are we going to be promoting it? What are
you going to be doing? Will there be a role for the voluntary
sector in promoting it? I think we are going to end up with public
sector housing being at Level 3 and private sector housing really
bumping along at the bottom.
Yvette Cooper: I do not think
there is any problem with public sector housing leading the way
and having a higher standard in leading the way and showing what
is possible. Bear in mind that at the same time we are raising
statutory standards as well, so we are raising the standards in
Building Regulations. The new standards that are in Building Regulations,
that is the statutory minimum that all of the private sector housing
will need to meet, will be increased from this April by 20% compared
to the current standards of energy efficiency and by 40% compared
to the standards that were in place in 2000. This Code is not
the only way in which we are improving the energy efficiency of
buildings. We are increasing the Building Regulation standards
to improve the energy efficiency of new buildings by 40% compared
to 2000. That is a substantial increase. We are then saying there
should be this voluntary Code which sets out where we go next
and what the additional improvements are. We are very clear, with
changing technologies and the demands for climate change and so
on, that this is a journey that we are on and we are going to
have to improve standards further. We are improving them as far
as we can in the statutory process already this April. The Code
is then about going further. It can be a good thing for the public
sector to lead the way. Yes, it is true that the building industry
will be thinking about their customers and so on and so there
is an issue about raising awareness as well, but I think you can
do both, you can raise statutory standards and have a Code that
goes further on top of that.
Q239 Emily Thornberry: Are you going
to have a promotional strategy?
Yvette Cooper: We will clearly
have to have a strategy to promote the Code. The first stage is
obviously to get the final detail of the Code set out. The consultation
on the Code concludes at the beginning of March. Then there will
be the final process of getting the detail right and after that
we will need a process in order to publicise it.
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