Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-359)
MR ELLIOT
MORLEY MP AND
DEPARTMENT FOR
ENVIRONMENT, FOOD
AND RURAL
AFFAIRS
31 JANUARY 2006
Q340 Joan Walley: Would that have
the possibility of reducing the number of homes?
Mr Morley: No, it was designed
to look at the impact. What is clear is that there is a need for
more homes. You can have an argument about what the precise figure
is, and I have no reason to dispute the modelling that ODPM have
done, they are the lead Department on this, but what is beyond
doubt is that we do need more homes, and we do need more homes
in the south, but that also means that there is an environmental
impact and you do have to assess that and the Entec study was
an attempt to have some independent analysis of that and that
was why we commissioned it.
Q341 Joan Walley: Could you perhaps
give us an idea of the different headings you are looking at in
terms of the environmental concerns?
Mr Morley: It looked at impacts
such as water, waste generation, transport, it covered all of
those areas.
Q342 Joan Walley: In fact, in the
evidence that we had before the Committee, the Bedfordshire Councils
Planning Consortium said they are concerned about the various
impacts, particularly in respect of water. Is that something you
are looking at closely? Can you give an assurance as a result
of all the new build that we will not be falling foul of the EU
Water Framework and the EU Habitats Directive?
Mr Morley: We were obliged to
apply both the Framework Directive and the Habitats Directive,
which we take very seriously, and we have to comply with those
regulations. Water companies themselves are obliged to have a
25 year forward look in relation to water demand and potential
housing demand and build and they have to build that into their
resource management. There is an obligation on them to do that.
Q343 Joan Walley: So you are satisfied
that we will be taking account of the various directives that
are there?
Mr Morley: We have an obligation
to take account of those directives and, indeed, so we should.
Q344 Mr Vaizey: Can I ask you about
reservoirs. It seems quite clear that the strategy that the water
companies want to pursue is to build more reservoirs in the South
East. How closely involved is your Department in thinking about
that? Are you convinced of the case put forward by the water companies?
Mr Morley: They have to make their
case in relation to the forward look in relation to future demand.
It is probably the case that there will have to be some new reservoir
capacity in relation to the long-term water demand but, of course,
we would want to see other measures taken into account such as
leakage and water efficiency before water companies start to make
an application for a reservoir.
Q345 Mr Vaizey: Can I press you on
that in terms of water leakage. I think you will probably find
that Thames Water will say, "We are doing all we can but
we still need a reservoir". Do you think that the water companies
could do more?
Mr Morley: The water companies
have a target to follow in relation to reducing leakage and the
latest figures from Thames are much more encouraging, I have to
say, than the figures in the past, they are making some progress
in reducing water leakages in the Thames area and I very much
welcome that. It is still the case it is likely that there will
be demand for new reservoirs. We do have a list of what water
companies are thinking about.
Q346 Mr Vaizey: In terms of sites?
Mr Morley: Yes, in terms of sites
and in terms of capacity.
Q347 Mr Vaizey: Is that a public
list?
Mr Morley: I think in relation
to Thames they have proposals for a very large reservoir in Oxfordshire,
which is public knowledge. I do not think there is any secret
about that.
Q348 Mr Vaizey: Any others?
Mr Morley: There are some proposals
for some smaller ones. I am not absolutely sure whether these
are in the public domain or not.
Q349 Mr Vaizey: One of the other
aspects about this is that even if the water companies do make
the case for a reservoir you have still got to dig quite a large
puddle and then fill it with water which takes quite a long time.
Even on the best case that Thames Water puts forward they are
unlikely to have their Oxfordshire reservoir ready until about
2020, yet the large number of homes that are planned for the South
East over the next decade, and we are likely to see those built
over the next decade, means in a sense there will be a water gap
even if the need for a reservoir is identified, it would not be
on stream for those new homes. Is that an issue that you are aware
of?
Mr Morley: I am not sure there
is a water gap because that would have to be a consideration in
the planning. It depends exactly where the development is. It
is possible to have some water transfer in the south, you can
move water from one area to another. You cannot move it all over
the place but there is potential water transfer which can give
you extra water in certain areas. You will have to have some more
water capacity in the longer term if you have got an expansion
of development.
Q350 Mr Vaizey: Given the importance
of water within planning, do you think there is a case for making
the water companies statutory consultees to the planning process?
Mr Morley: They certainly need
to be a consultee. There is no reason why we should not look at
the argument for making them a statutory consultee. In terms of
large scale developments, ODPM and ourselves would expect water
supplies to be taken into consideration, and indeed water treatment
for that matter as well, as part of the overall strategic approach.
When it comes to the planning stage the planners would also want
to be assured that there is adequate water supply and proper water
treatment.
Q351 Chairman: So the Government
have said, "We want lots more homes in the South East"
and Thames have said, "We need a new reservoir" and
you said they have got to be better at stopping leaks. There is
at least some suggestion that there is potentially a gap here.
Are you saying the Government would not allow a reservoir until
Thames had reached a certain standard in terms of reducing leaks?
Mr Morley: It is not so much for
the Government, it is for the planners. In relation to the planning
application one of their considerations would be whether or not
the reservoir is needed. It is likely that given the increase
in water demand there probably will be a need for a reservoir
for the Thames region, that is likely. It is inevitable when Thames
makes that planning application that if people think there are
grounds to criticise it in relation to its leakage rate then,
of course, they are going to do that, so it is very important
that Thames does address the leakage rate, not only in relation
to sustainability but also in relation to the credibility of its
own planning application, and I am quite sure they know that very
well. Just coming back on the statutory consultees from the water
companies, by the way on a regional level water companies are
a statutory consultee.
Q352 Chairman: So, on a decision
to increase the number of houses being built in the South East
the Government might have a view about what that does to water
supplies.
Mr Morley: We will have to take
into account water supplies in relation to the long-term plans,
yes.
Q353 Ms Barlow: Speaking at the launch
of the Water Savings Group Action Plan back in October, you said:
"the uncomfortable reality is that we can no longer assume
unlimited supplies of water in all circumstances". Does this
just mean that we can forget about having our hosepipes on in
the summer or does it mean a lot more? Does climate change and
an increased desire on behalf of consumers actually mean that
particularly in my area, the South East, when consumers turn on
the tap they should not assume that water will always be there?
Mr Morley: You are absolutely
right on that point. You do seem to have a very liberal supply
of speeches that I have made in various places, Chairman. You
are absolutely right in that in this country I think most people
take water for granted and they assume it is not a problem, turn
a tap on and there it is, you can build more houses, not a worry,
lots of rain, but that is not the case. We do have water stressed
areas in the east of England and the south. We have had some remarkably
dry winters and, in fact, this winter, unfortunately, has proven
to be a very dry winter. It is not over yet so there is still
the possibility that we will get above average rain. The fact
is we do need to take into account the fact that water is an important
resource and we must not waste it. That includes thinking about
how we use it, the regulations, water using devices. We have to
take all of these points into consideration in the way that you
quite rightly said.
Q354 Ms Barlow: In the near future
could you possibly foresee a situation where water is only available
for part of the day, say?
Mr Morley: I think that would
be a major failure of planning the supply if we were ever in that
situation. I do not envisage that, it would be a failure if we
were in that situation. To avoid being in that situation we need
to raise awareness of the fact there is a need to use water wisely
and we also need to encourage the most efficient use of water,
which is why we have the Water Savings Group.
Q355 Ms Barlow: Could you give an
update on the work of the Water Savings Group? In particular,
can you say what success you are having with customer perceptions
and awareness, which is what you have been talking about? We were
told earlier by Thames Water that water consumption is going up
despite the Government's campaign.
Mr Morley: What Thames had to
say was very interesting. The trouble is a lot of people are switching
to power showers and all sorts of different devices which do not
help in relation to water use. There are many devices that can
save water use. The Group has just been set up and the working
groups have just started their work. There are five working groups
which are looking at a number of work streams. I will just give
you the work streams: the measuring of success, how you know that
you are having an effect in terms of reducing water; what the
information needs are, gaps in information, priorities for that
and how you fund that; best practice in water company variations
of water efficiency; identifying best practice and how you can
apply it; understanding and changing customer perceptions and
raising awareness, a point you were touching upon; and the policy
and regulatory framework. Those are the work streams under way
by the Water Savings Group at the present time. The new Consumer
Council for Water also has new duties compared to its predecessor,
including sustainability but also raising consumer awareness,
a much more educative role. I know that the new Chair of the CCW
is very enthusiastic about that.
Q356 Ms Barlow: Is there any evidence
yet that there is customer awareness that water is a limited and
precious resource?
Mr Morley: I think it is a bit
too soon to say although you are probably aware of some of the
publicity recently about the situation in the south. Some of the
newspapers have been carrying stories in the last couple of days
about the fact that we had a very dry summer and now we have had
one of the driest winters on record, that rainfall in some parts
of the region is 40% what you would normally expect in the winter.
I think people are aware that there are problems. We also know
from some of the work on climate change that there is a very high
awareness of climate change amongst the public, weather patterns
do appear to be shifting and there are implications in relation
to climatic change and water that we cannot ignore. These are
issues that we do have to address in terms of our long-term planning.
Whatever the situation is for the future I think it is important
we come back to this point that people should use water efficiently.
We do need to raise awareness on that and that is one of the work
streams of the Group.
Q357 Mr Vaizey: I am becoming mildly
obsessive about saving water. I had Thames Water's top man round
to my house in the constituency to tell me how to save water on
Friday and, luckily for me, I had an over-sized cistern and a
leaking tap.
Mr Morley: Not a good example
then.
Q358 Mr Vaizey: He could identify
litres and litres of water that I could save. It does strike me
there is a massive gap and surely if it is important to save water
you should be thinking about a proper public information campaign.
To hear we have only got 40% of the rainfall is news to me. I
was very casual about my leaking tap, it was in my downstairs
loo, it was out of sight, out of mind. People should be told,
"Check your taps". It seems to me there is not very
much accessible information about how to save water. I think you
can get simple messages through, just as I think people have taken
on board the fact that you turn off your standby button to save
energy.
Mr Morley: There are very simple
gains that can be made, for example, with dual flush toilets,
which are now the norm when you are buying a new toilet, particularly
for a refurbishment or a modernisation (apart from new build),
which are on sale in the various superstores and in the hardware
wholesalers. I think that there is more there that could be done.
There is an industry-financed group, waterwise, and they are working
with water suppliers looking at the idea of a labelling scheme,
a bit like the energy labelling scheme from A to E in relation
to energy. What they are looking for is a labelling scheme for
water efficiency and I very much welcome that.
Q359 Colin Challen: The Government
does to seem to have taken up Ken Livingstone's suggestion that
we should flush the loo a little less.
Mr Morley: Not flushing the toilet?
Hmm.
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