Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
MR BEN
BRADSHAW, MS
GLENYS STACEY
AND DR
DEBBY REYNOLDS
15 NOVEMBER 2005
Q80 David Taylor: One further point,
Chairman, if I may. I was pleased to hear you say earlier on (and
I paraphrase) that the egg and poultry sectors are highly responsible
farming sectors, and they do try their utmost, not just for commercial
reasons, to minimise risk to poultry health from the risk of Avian
Influenza. There will be food safety scare stories, will there
not? At least one of your predecessors, some years ago, was seen
off by a story in this particular area. Was she not? Would you
care to say how strongly you endorse the FSA advice that, on the
basis of current evidence, Avian Flu does not pose a safety risk
to UK consumers and people cannot catch it from being in close
contact with live poultry or through eating poultry and eggs?
There is a real worry in the egg and poultry industry that a food
scare of the sort which would be associated with an outbreak of
Avian Influenza would be immensely damaging to them as well as
to the status of their industry. What would you do to try and
reassure people?
Mr Bradshaw: I would draw people's
attention to the FSA advice you have just quoted which sounds
to me to be spot on. I would also point out to the Committee that,
hearteningly, in this country, unlike some other EU countries,
there has not been a drop in poultry consumption or egg consumption
as a result of some of the more lurid scare stories which I am
afraid we are all too tired of reading in some of our tabloid
newspapers.
Q81 David Taylor: Is it your view
then that the coverage of the potential for Avian Influenza in
the tabloid newspapers and on tabloid television has been somewhat
alarmist and over-coloured?
Mr Bradshaw: I think some of it
has been over the top, but at the same time I would not want to
under-estimate the potential impact of either an Avian Flu outbreak
or the possibility at some stage of the virus—I should not
use the term mutating—
Dr Reynolds: Reassorting.
Mr Bradshaw:— reassorting
and leading to a human pandemic. Some of the coverage has been
unnecessarily alarmist and does not help people to make rational
decisions, which I am sure you and I would hope they will continue
to make, about, for example, consuming poultry products.
Q82 Chairman: Minister, can you just
up-date the Committee on what is happening about poultry auctions
at the present time?
Mr Bradshaw: As far as I am aware,
the EU has agreed a temporary ban on all poultry and bird gatherings
subject to exemptions based on a case-by-case veterinary risk
assessment.
Q83 Chairman: Have you any idea how
long that policy stays in place?
Mr Bradshaw: Currently until the
beginning December. The decision will have to be reviewed before
then and discussions are going on, and will continue to go on,
as to whether the measures which were agreed last month remain
necessary and whether they were proportionate.
Q84 Chairman: Is it still the case
that you are giving consideration to introducing a new Diseases
of Poultry (England) Order, to re-make the 2003 version of it?
Mr Bradshaw: Yes. This is the
one to give us the necessary powers in the event of an outbreak,
some of which we have already touched on, such as the requirement
for people to house their poultry outside the immediate infection
zone.
Q85 Chairman: When do you plan to
do that? You have obviously worked out a series of contingency
situations which you need to legislate for. When are you going
to do it?
Mr Bradshaw: I am advised it is
being worked on at the moment, but as soon as possible.
Q86 Mrs Moon: You have talked about
the surveillance programme in relation to wild birds. Can you
give us an up-date on how that surveillance programme is going?
Are you able to confirm that there is no risk as far as the Department
is aware at the moment from the wild bird population?
Mr Bradshaw: I would not say there
is no risk, Chairman. There is, we believe, still a low risk of
spread of AI to this country, but we think that risk has increased
as a result of the geographical spread in wild birds which has
already occurred, although I would add there has been no evidence
of further geographical spread for about a month further west
than the west of the Urals or Croatia, where the discoveries have
already been made. One of the other things which not only we but
the international community are still not clear about is the exact
relationship between high pathogenic AI in wild birds and its
occurrence in poultry; whether wild birds can infect poultry directly.
That is why the epidemiological investigation of the quarantine
facility is in my view so significant, because that showed that
even in close confinement there was not a spread.
Q87 Mrs Moon: I understand that Turkey
and Romania introduced a ban on the shooting of game birds and
wild birds as a result of the outbreak there. Have you considered
that?
Mr Bradshaw: It is certainly something
which has been discussed. We would want to consider any measure
that did not add to the potential for spreading disease in the
event of an outbreak in this country.
Q88 Mrs Moon: If there were an Avian
Influenza outbreak which did cross over into the human population,
do you have a contingency plan and what would that be in terms
of protecting the public?
Mr Bradshaw: This is not really
a question for me, Chairman. I do know the answer to it and I
am happy to give it if you want.
Q89 Chairman: The potted version
because I suspect it may take quite a long time.
Mr Bradshaw: My colleagues in
the Department of Health have a contingency plan. The HPA has
a plan. It is being up-dated all the time but certainly I saw
a version of it published in August. As I say, questions on human
health are not really for me.
Q90 Mrs Moon: As long as the plan
is in place.
Mr Bradshaw: Yes.
Q91 Chairman: Can I try and draw
together the risk factors as we see them at the moment. We have
questioned now on the subject of the quarantine arrangements because
one of the key routes is in imported birds with a disease, and
we have talked about that. There is the question of migratory
birds, but we are told we have come at this moment in time to
the end of the major movements, so that as a risk factor goes
down. In terms of migratory birds, when does it become a risk
for the United Kingdom? When could the risk go up? The worry is
that public awareness, and the awareness of the industry, has
been on a high level of readiness whilst current events have been
unfolding but, as you rightly pointed out, Minister, there has
not been a spread westwards of the disease for a month and the
number of incidents has dropped off the public radar, and people
tend to relax. When should they start getting alert again?
Mr Bradshaw: This question is
very interesting, is it not, because as soon as AI goes out of
the newspaper headlines or the news headlines people do tend to
relax and I think that would be a mistake. We are certainly not
relaxing and we are constantly monitoring and up-dating our risk
assessment. Just because there has not been any geographical spread
for a month, does not mean to say there will not be. For example,
were there to be, as the Meteorological Office has been predicting
for some time, a very, very hard winter with anti-cyclonic weather,
easterly winds blowing from Siberia in our direction, then our
advice from ornithologists and others is that that may increase
the risk again of geographical spread. The next usual migration
period is February, March next year, the spring, when they will
be going south-north by and large, and that will again add to
the danger of further geographical spread. At the moment, we are
not on a common migration route where there has already been an
infection but that could change, as I say, if there is some very
cold easterly weather.
Q92 Chairman: Can I make one special
request? When newspapers refer to areas which are of importance
to migratory birds, the public become interested if their area
is fingered. Whilst you made reference, quite rightly, to the
Defra website and information going out to those who are very
close to the world of poultry and birds, could I ask you to look
again at the way you might communicate with members of the public
in wetland areas, estuarial areas and so on about what they ought
to be aware of without obviously, as they say, frightening the
horses? They are an additional source of eyes and ears over and
above the wild fowlers and others who are close to bird life in
those areas. I think the public, if for no other reason, would
like a little reassurance, and I say that as somebody who represents
a large chunk of the Ribble estuary. People are interested but,
if you like, advice cameth there none.
Mr Bradshaw: We are already doing
that and if it is not already on our website, I will make sure
it is put on there. There are some very useful and interesting
maps of bird migration routes and we have good relationships not
just with the wild fowlers but with the RSPB and various wetland
centres. Members of the public, through you, Chairman, if they
see a very high level of unusual die-off in wild birds particularly
wading birds, swans, ducks, then let us know.
Q93 Patrick Hall: Minister, the report
which we discussed earlier by the National Emergencies Epidemiology
Group, whilst it focuses entirely on the Pegasus Birds Centre
in Essex, does reveal, does it not, almost incidentally a situation
in which it would seem that the imported exotic wild-caught bird
trade is associated with a high level of mortality and poor animal
welfare conditions? That is hinted at in this report. Do you not
think, on the back of the attention being paid to these matters
now because of Avian Influenza, there is a case to extend the
ban on that trade pending a thorough and public review into the
nature of that trade?
Mr Bradshaw: These are issues
we explored a little earlier, Chairman, and as I say the UK will
argue for the ban to stay in place at least until the outcome
of the review into the quarantine process. Mr Hall is right to
highlight the fact there is a debate, and there has been a debate
for a very long time, about whether this trade should continue
on animal welfare and conservation grounds. It is a debate, it
does not mean to say that one side of the argument is necessarily
right or wrong. It certainly is a debate in which we will be taking
part but we have not reached a settled view at this stage as to
whether this trade should be banned permanently either on conservation
or animal welfare grounds.
Q94 Patrick Hall: I am saying though
is this not an opportunity? Are there not sound reasons to take
the attention which is being paid now, for the understandable
reasons of Avian Influenza, and look at that trade as a whole?
When Avian Influenza, we hope, dies out, other issues will remain
and it should not forever remain a debate between various parties.
Perhaps there needs to be some stepping back from the intensity
of those who take part in that debate, and maybe from a Defra
point of view having a proper review into the issues which are
raised by that. The trade may by its very nature increase the
risk of Avian Influenza, for example, but there may be other issues
which are relevant and indeed other diseases which could be associated
with it. So there is a case not just for observing a debate but
taking a lead in reviewing what happens and whether it should
continue into this country, legally that is.
Mr Bradshaw: I accept that, Chairman,
but I would simply point out that there are 2 million people in
this country who own birds and take great pleasure from their
birds and the vast majority of these people care very, very deeply
about the welfare of their birds. It is desirable that more of
those birds are bred in captivity in this country than are imported.
I would simply point out to Mr Hall that there are those who make
an argument on conservation grounds for a trade to continue, including
CITES, which is the international organisation responsible for
the conservation of rare species, so it is not a simple yes or
no answer. Of course it is something we are thinking about all
the time because we are being asked questions about it all the
time, and I suspect the debate will move quite quickly as we come
at successive times to reconsider the ban.
Q95 Patrick Hall: I am taking it
then that you do not think this is an opportunity for Defra to
look at that trade as such outwith the issues raised by Avian
Influenza?
Mr Bradshaw: No, that is not what
I am saying at all. I am saying we look at these things all the
time and we are looking at them particularly intensively at the
moment, given the fact there is a ban in place and we need to
think about whether to extend it and what reasons there are for
extending it.
Q96 Lynne Jones: The Defra contingency
plan says that vaccination is not expected to be part of your
Avian Influenza control strategy. Are you keeping this position
under review and what evidence or opinion are you taking into
consideration? What work are you doing to help other countries,
particularly in the Far East and in Eastern Europe, to ensure
they are on the ball in relation to ensuring not only the spread
of Avian Flu does not take place but also Avian Flu mutating in
humans? I know that is the role of the Department of Health but
if there is going to be a mutation in humans, it is likely to
occur in another country.
Mr Bradshaw: Ms Jones is absolutely
right. This has been endemic in a number of South East Asian countries
for a number of years in poultry, and so far, thankfully, the
evidence would suggest it is very, very difficult to catch; you
can only catch it by being in very close proximity to poultry
either as a poultry worker or as a farmer who lives in close proximity
to poultry. We are working very, very closely with the countries
affected through all of the international organisations you would
expect us to—the UN, the OIE, WHO. As I said earlier, VLA
is the international centre for testing. I do not know whether
Glenys or Debby have, but certainly Defra staff have visited the
countries concerned. There is currently a visit going on in South
East Asia. We have also offered and provided help to Russia, to
the countries closer to hand which have had outbreaks. On vaccination,
we are constantly reviewing the issue of vaccination, and we have
set up an expert group to have another look at this and report
back. Currently not just in this country but EU-wide, vaccination
is not envisaged as a useful tool in the event of any outbreak,
because you have to inject every single individual bird not once
but twice with a gap of three weeks in between, by which stage
they are going to be dead. So there is no vaccine which is currently
authorised, I think is the right word to describe it, because
it is not seen as an effective tool and it is very time-consuming
and very expensive.
Q97 Lynne Jones: Are poultry not
vaccinated against salmonella?
Mr Bradshaw: Yes, but that is
orally. Is it orally?
Dr Reynolds: I think salmonella
vaccines are by injection. The Newcastle Disease is commonly done
by the aerosol route.
Mr Bradshaw: It is obviously much
easier to vaccinate a large number of birds orally than it would
be with an individual needle.
Q98 Lynne Jones: But they are injected
against salmonella?
Dr Reynolds: The situation on
vaccination is that for broilers in particular, with two injections
required, the broilers would be dead by the time vaccination and
immunity had kicked in. There is the question of vaccinating older
birds but I think the main point on vaccination is that it does
not necessarily prevent infection and it does not necessarily
stop virus-shedding, so you have to envisage a situation with
Avian Influenza where there would be on-going infection and on-going
shedding. The evidence really is that the most effective disease
control approach is to identify the infected premises, cull the
birds there, put on movement controls, trace to dangerous contacts,
cull those and deal quickly and effectively to actually remove
the virus, rather than allow it to spread slowly in the face of
vaccination.
Q99 Chairman: So you are not following
the advice in the newspapers at the weekend to feed your birds
sauerkraut?
Mr Bradshaw: I am a great fan
of sauerkraut, Chairman? Anything that helps.
Chairman: I am going to draw this area
of our questioning to a conclusion. We have had a very good session
indeed. Can I thank you, Minister, and also for the contributions
of Glenys Stacey and Debby Reynolds. I think the Committee would
appreciate receiving from time to time regular up-dates on what
is happening. If there were, and we hope there is not, to be any
further outbreaks you have taken due note of our hope that Members
of Parliament will be kept a little more in the picture as to
what is happening in and around their constituencies than perhaps
was the case on this occasion.
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