Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80
- 98)
WEDNESDAY 16 NOVEMBER 2005
MS HELEN
GHOSH, MR
BILL STOW
AND MR
ANDREW BURCHELL
Q80 Chairman: Our time is drawing
to a conclusion, but I want to turn to rural affairs and the rural
economy, because that is going to be a central area for Defra's
input, particularly in the light of the change with the Common
Agricultural Policy and the decoupling of payments and the development
of alternative economic activity in the rural economy. In your
PSA target number four, you have committed yourself to reduce
the gap in productivity between the least well-performing quartile
of rural areas and the English median by 2006 and improve the
accessibility of services for rural people. I see in this year's
Report you have not made any assessment of progress towards that
target. Why?
Ms Ghosh: At a high level, I understand
that we have had our programme in place on rural productivity
only since 2003 and there are issues about levels of resources.
Q81 Chairman: It says here it went
live on 1 April, so that is two years and you have not made any
assessment as to whether you have had any impact in moving even
one percentage point towards an improvement?
Ms Ghosh: No. I will hand over
to Andrew for the stuff on measurement, but I think actually it
is a very challenging target.
Q82 Chairman: Your Department signed
up to this thing?
Ms Ghosh: We have got decades,
in some cases, for these particular bottom-quartile rural areas,
of economic decline to catch up on and in some cases the problems
that they face are intrinsic: the sparse populations, which then
produce issues around communications, and so on. I think actually
it is very challenging and it is quite recent. I will hand over
to Andrew.
Q83 Chairman: It may be that Mr Burchell
enlightens us with new news.
Ms Ghosh: I do not know if there
is better news.
Q84 Chairman: What have you been
doing for the last two years?
Mr Burchell: You have actually
hit the nail very firmly on the head, in terms of the difficulty
we have in measuring progress against this target.
Q85 Chairman: Notwithstanding this
Balanced Scorecard you were telling us about earlier. This appears
not to have hit the radar then?
Mr Burchell: I would have to go
back and check the latest dashboard on that, Mr Chairman. In relation
to this particular target, there is an issue over the availability
of data. The data which measures productivity on a regional basis
is produced with a very considerable time-lag, of up to two years.
For my part and I think others, that would call into question
whether or not the actual measurement of that target and the actual
definition of that target is very useful from a real time point
of view, because there is such a lag that you cannot actually
see how far you are making progress.
Q86 Chairman: Basically, "if
we can't achieve the target, change it"?
Mr Burchell: We are doing work
at the moment to identify other measures and other indicators
which would provide information on whether or not we will be on
course to meet that, because clearly it is not satisfactory that
you can only measure progress after a period in which you are
supposed to have met that target.
Q87 Chairman: Really it is a bit
of a nonsense then, it is a bit of a meaningless target, is it?
Mr Burchell: We faced a similar
situation a few years ago, in relation to data with respect to
waste recycling, and so on. At that stage we came up with the
means of getting some more real-time information through contacting
local authorities. Clearly we need to look at how we can get that
information, in terms of progress, with respect to this target,
because, as I said, waiting for two years is not very satisfactory.
Q88 Chairman: You have sub-contracted
to the Regional Development Agencies, which are mentioned in the
target, further work to develop the rural economy. Obviously,
when you dreamed up this target, or it was imposed on you by the
Treasury, somebody was trying to measure, or give you some kind
of measure, of improvement of economic activity in the rural domain.
If you are going to be able to monitor the new ways of developing
the rural economy then perhaps we need some new forms of measurement
and assessment because clearly this one has remained moribund
for two years, from what I can see?
Mr Burchell: I would not like
to leave you with the impression that we have done nothing for
two years. When the target was set we did not actually have a
baseline against which to measure performance, in terms of putting
a programme over the two years, so much of our effort to date
has been in terms of establishing that baseline. Having established
the baseline then clearly we need to measure progress against
that.
Q89 Chairman: If you could not establish
a baseline, how on earth do targets get agreed to, where then,
subsequently, in hindsight, it becomes impossible to work out
where the starting-point is? I think it raises a question about
the credibility of a target-setting agenda where, as you say,
it is aspirational, in one of them, and here we have another one
which is extremely difficult to establish (a) where we started
from and seemingly (b) where we are going?
Mr Burchell: I think that is a
fair comment.
Ms Ghosh: It is a fair cop.
Q90 Chairman: In the public spending
round which is currently under way, are all of these PSAs going
to be re-examined?
Ms Ghosh: Yes. In fact, that was
going to be my response, "It's a fair cop; I think you are
right." It has just been pointed out, of course what it does
do, although it sounds rather perverse, in answer to your question,
is that having the target encourages us to get the information.
Given that this is a very valid thing to be measuring, having
the target encourages us to get the information. I think one of
the things that all departments will be doing, although this is
over quite a long timescale and it is a phased process, about
which Andrew knows more than I do, the Comprehensive Spending
Review will give us the opportunity to look again at the PSAs
for the period beyond the current SR2004. I think, as a Department,
we will need to do some pretty early thinking of, in some cases,
what are sensible targets and what are perhaps more sensible measures
of those targets. I am very keen that Andrew and his team, with
colleagues across the Department, should get down to that work
as soon as possible, so that we are on the front foot when we
come to debates with the Treasury.
Q91 Mr Reed: Do we not have a baseline
for measuring progress?
Ms Ghosh: We do have now.
Mr Burchell: Yes.
Q92 Mr Reed: What do we expect to
happen between now and 2006?
Mr Burchell: In terms of movements
against that baseline, given that we will not be able to assess
performance against that baseline for about a two-year period,
in terms of impacts on the ground, clearly we expect lots of things
to happen. Our ability to measure that impact in an aggregated
way against that particular baseline measure clearly causes us
some problems if there is a two-year delay. That is not the same
thing as saying that nothing is happening for two years and not
having any positive impact on the ground in terms of things we
are trying to effect.
Q93 Chairman: In conclusion, can
I ask just one question in terms of your future PSAs. In Appendix
3 of your Report, on page 297, target 11 is a commitment about
the eradication of BSE. Are you proposing to have a similar target
to deal with Bovine TB?
Mr Burchell: We have a target
for Bovine TB already.
Q94 Chairman: Where is it then?
Mr Burchell: It is part of our
SR2004 targets. It is PSA 9. We are shortly to publish our Autumn
Performance Report, which will be the first time we will have
reported on our SR2004 targets, which of course did not kick in
until April 2005.
Q95 Chairman: In case I have made
an error, I will apologise in advance, but in which Appendix is
this one?
Ms Ghosh: This is the 2004 PSA.
Mr Burchell: Page 293, I am told.
Ms Ghosh: The target is "a
reduction in the spread of Bovine TB to new parishes to below
the incremental trend of 17.5 confirmed new incidents per annum
by the end of 2008."
Mr Burchell: It is on the left-hand
side of page 293. On December 16 we will be publishing our Autumn
Performance Report, which will be the first publication covering
the targets in the SR2004 period.
Q96 Chairman: This is purely to contain
the spread but not to deal with where there is currently an outbreak?
Mr Burchell: Yes, a reduction
in spread.
Q97 Chairman: The reason I asked
that question is that your Department supplied us with part of
your strategy, an interesting financial projection, as to what,
if current trends of the incidence of the disease were to go,
you would have clocked up in about another eight or so years'
time. Off the top of my head, I think the figure of some £370
million a year annual expenditure was racked up, it was a huge
number. I think that combined both compensation spending and R&D
but, as I say, I do it without having the benefit of having it
in front of me. Are you going to develop a more rigorous PSA then
to deal with Bovine TB, bearing in mind the obvious pressures
it is putting on your budget?
Ms Ghosh: Obviously, at this stage,
this side of the CSR, we cannot commit to what our set of PSAs
may be.
Q98 Chairman: You have a negotiation
about it, do you not?
Ms Ghosh: Indeed, and it will
depend on the emerging policy that ministers adopt on the question
of the spread of Bovine TB, and that will be reflected appropriately
in the PSA.
Chairman: Before my colleagues flee,
can I thank you for your bravery in coming after 10 days and answering
our questions. I think you have got an interesting and useful
overview already of your Department's challenges and we look forward
to having you in front of the Committee on subsequent occasions,
and maybe after six months we will have a little "take stock"
session, which will be useful. Can you for your bravery in coming
after 10 days and you and also those behind you who supplied occasionally
pieces of paper at the appropriate moment. We bring this session
to a conclusion with the proviso that we will write to you seeking
answers to a number of questions that we did not have time to
put to you.[21]
Thank you very much.
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