Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-139)
MR JACK
STRAW MP, MR
DAVID RICHMOND
CMG AND DR
PETER GOODERHAM
24 OCTOBER 2005
Q120 Mr Horam: Are we going to make
a big effort?
Mr Straw: This is now becoming
almost a cliché, but whilst in Iraq their fear is of occupation;
in Afghanistan the fear is of abandonment. In Iraq—
Q121 Mr Horam: How would you feel
that the situation in Afghanistan has suffered as a result of
their abandonment by the attention being drawn to Iraq?
Mr Straw: No, I do not think that.
Q122 Mr Horam: You just said it was,
that—
Mr Straw: I said that the Iraqis
fear occupation. I am dealing with differences in the political
and psychological make-up of the Iraqis as opposed to the Afghans.
Whilst the Iraqis fear occupation, as I say—they wish that
our troops to leave as quickly as possible once the security situation
is better; in Afghanistan they fear abandonment because they saw
what abandonment—
Q123 Mr Horam: But they fear abandonment
because we have abandoned them to some extent.
Mr Straw: No, it is to do much
more with what happened over a thirty-year period, when in fact
the international community did abandon them in the mid seventies,
and then in turns they were left to the devices of the Soviet
bloc and then there was, as it were, this interim strategy of
funding Mujahadeen, which then morphed into the Taleban; so it
was not altogether satisfactory. I am simply making the point
that this is a long-term commitment by the international community
and by the UK, both in terms of money and in terms of our military
presence; and there is going to be this announcement.
Q124 Mr Horam: What do you think
is the biggest problem in Afghanistan now?
Mr Straw: Well, there are a number
of linked problems. There is the problem of terrorism, of drugs,
of corruption and of poor governance.
Q125 Mr Horam: They are pretty big
problems.
Mr Straw: Of course they are big
problems, but if you go to where the country started four years
ago, these are problems that can be overcome. Significantly, the
Afghans are embracing the idea of democracy, just as they are
in Iraq.
Q126 Mr Horam: But my point is, can
you make the kind of big or significant increase in effort there
to deal with the problems you have just outlined in Afghanistan,
while at the same time being committed to a situation in Iraq,
which is as difficult as it is?
Mr Straw: Yes, and if you are
asking me about troop numbers, obviously if you want detailed
information you need to ask the Defence Minister. Although our
commitment in Iraq remains substantial, our troop numbers are
now well below 10,000; and bear in mind that at the height of
the war there were 46,000 troops in theatre. The judgment of John
Reid and of the Chief of Defence Staff is that the increase in
troop numbers that will be announced for Afghanistan later this
week is one that can be sustained—and that is their judgment
not mine!
Q127 Mr Maples: I wonder whether
we could move to some other parts of the Middle East, particularly
Saudi Arabia and Egypt. One of the things that this Committee
has been interested in, and so has the Government, is the process
of what one might broadly call Arab reform, reforming Arab countries,
both in terms of their economy and in terms of development of
government, human rights and governance. If we take those two
specific countries—I know that there are others but Saudi
Arabia and Egypt seem to me to be the most important—do
you think we are seeing real progress? There may be different
answers to the two questions, but are we seeing real progress,
both in terms of economic and political reform? I do not mind
how slow it is, but do you think things are happening?
Mr Straw: I think there is progress
being made. Egypt, as you will be aware, has begun multi-party
elections. It has been slow process.
Doctor Gooderham: In respect of
Egypt, we have already had the presidential elections, and the
country is now gearing up for the parliamentary elections, which
will take place in three stages, three periods. I would agree
with you: it is a significant development, what we saw both in
the presidential elections and what we are now expecting to see
in the parliamentary elections. There is clearly a development
towards more democratisation in Egypt. Saudi Arabia of course
is further behind, but it has now held municipal elections, and
the government there does appear to be committed to what I think
is fair to describe as an evolutionary approach to further democratisation
in that country. I suspect that it will be fairly slow, but I
think that the new King, King Abdullah, has gone on the record
to say that they want to move this forward.
Q128 Mr Maples: One of the things
we have discussed before on this subject is the view that I take,
and which I think a lot of others share, that there are some pretty
fundamental things that have to be in place before democracy is
going to work, for example the rule of law, a relatively incorrupt
government, a private sector with a growing middle class, if one
wants to put it like that. Are we seeing evidence of developments
in good governance, lack of corruption, objectivity and the rule
of law? Those seem to me in some ways to be more important than
the actual elections, at least in this stage of the process.
Doctor Gooderham: I think we are
seeing patchy progress. We have to be realistic. Obviously, we
would like to see more progress more quickly, but I think you
can point to some countries where the processes are improving
all the time. To refer back to what the Foreign Secretary said
earlier, the fund that we have available in the FCO, the Engagement
with the Islamic World Fund, and the £10 million that the
Foreign Secretary referred to—we are using a lot of that
money for precisely projects designed to bolster rule of law,
the participation of women in the political and democratic processes
in various countries in the region; so we are doing what we can.
Q129 Mr Maples: I am sure we are
doing a lot, but do you think there is a recognition on the part
of the governments of Saudi Arabia and Egypt—and again there
may be different answers on both—of the need to move down
this track? If they want to become part of the mainstream world
and become prosperous with growing economies do they recognise
that these are essential ingredients; or do you think that that
is not really how they see it, and that they think, "oh,
gosh, I suppose we had better do something because the British
and the Americans are pestering us about it"?
Doctor Gooderham: No, I think
that there are signs, particularly in Egypt, where President Mubarak
has said repeatedly that this is the direction he wants to take
Egypt in; but they will have to go at their own pace, and that
is reasonable. They need to gauge how much progress they can make
at each stage. Obviously, we have been doing what we can to encourage
the process of democratisation. We are not alone; there is a G8
process that is active; but we are very careful to put that in
the context of encouragement rather than trying to impose or direct,
because that would clearly be counterproductive.
Q130 Mr Maples: Do you think that
in terms of economic development the governments of countries
like Egypt and Saudi Arabia look around the world and ask, "How
is it that Malaysia, South Korea, China and India can start making
this phenomenal economic progress, and we make none; if we did
not have oil we would be bust"?
Mr Straw: I think they do. That
was the central theme of the report of the Arab intellectuals
a couple of years, the seminal report by the United Nations Development
Programme.
Q131 Mr Maples: The Development Programme
recognised that, but did the governments—
Mr Straw: They are increasingly
recognising this. The figures are startling. For example, Hewlett
Packard obtains more patents every two weeks than have been issued
in respect of Arab countries over a 20-year period. The intellectual
impoverishment of this region is terrible, and increasingly Arab
leaders are recognising that. I read a book over the summer, The
World is Flat, by Tom Friedman, which spells out as a very
useful synopsis of the challenge affecting the Arab region. Mr
Maples is absolutely right to say that the countries in the Arab
world were at least on a level with Malaysia, China and South
Korea, if not doing rather better than them fifty years ago in
terms of overall living standards. They are now way behind, and
it is a really serious issue for them. However, there are signs
of improvement. There was the joint conference on Saudi reform,
which I chaired with His Royal Highness Prince Saud Al-Faisal
in February. If you had said to me even a year ago that there
was going to be this kind of joint conference, one would have
been very sceptical; but it indicates an increasing commitment
by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to its reform programme—that
is a similar but different commitment by the government of Egypt.
Chairman, can I crave the indulgence of the Committee? I had understood
this session would last an hour or an hour and a half, and I think
others thought it would last two hours; and if it would finish
in seven or eight minutes, that is closer to two hours than an
hour and a half.
Q132 Chairman: I think we will do
that. We will see if we can get there. Can I ask about the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict. You talked about impoverishment of people and lack of
political progress. What is your assessment of the impact of the
Israeli withdrawal from Gaza on the possibilities of political
process going further; and do you think that will have any impact
on terrorism in the region?
Mr Straw: We welcomed, and I welcomed,
the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. If your aim is a separate state
for Palestine, you have to start somewhere, and you have to start,
in my judgment, with the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. It is therefore
a necessary—I am not saying sufficient—precondition
for the establishment of that state. It is also a test for the
Palestinian authority whether it has the capacity and the will
to build up what would be an embryonic mini state. A great deal
of effort is going in to support them in terms of security reform,
and, through Jim Wolfensohn, a process of reconstruction; so it
is a good step rather than the reverse. On the issue of terrorism,
the quicker the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is resolved by political
processes the quicker we can see an end to the terrorism that
has so shattered lives on both sides of the green line.
Q133 Chairman: Do you see a role
for either the UK, the EU or some other international body in
facilitating the ongoing process?
Mr Straw: Are you talking about
security forces?
Q134 Chairman: Either as security
forces or facilitating the negotiation process, given that the
Israelis seem to be saying that there are not going to be any
more dramatic unilateral steps, and that the Palestinians have
got the election, and the Israelis have got a political power
struggle within Likud. Can we and others internationally do something
now to keep the process going?
Mr Straw: We are doing, but I
think it is important that we should not reinvent these structures.
We have got the Quartet arrangement now and it is working. There
was a good meeting in late September in New York, which I attended,
and we just need to keep that going. There was a very, very positive
commitment all round the table, from the UN, from the Russian
Federation from the US and the EU to this process and to the conclusions
we came up with. In terms of whether there is a contribution that
we can make, there are many contributions that we can make, and
we are making them in many respects, including continuing support
and advice to the Palestinian authority for security sector reform.
We would also be willing to consider any requests that came in
for other assistance.
Q135 Mr Hamilton: Foreign Secretary,
there is no doubt that the security barrier or wall, whatever
you would call it, has helped the Israelis keep out some atrocities
that might have happened had they not had it. The big problem
is where it goes. We have had the Israeli High Court making judgments
that the route of the wall, or plan for the wall, or barrier,
has been entirely wrong, cutting off Palestinians from their own
farmland. What can we do to ensure that if they continue to build
this barrier they do not further create resentment amongst Palestinians
and exacerbate some of the terrorist acts that are taking place?
Mr Straw: If they did indeed build
the wall away from the green line—
Q136 Mr Hamilton: I am thinking about
the way they are encircling East Jerusalem, for example.
Mr Straw: Indeed. This will exacerbate
tensions. However, there is a prior question here, which is the
building of settlements, because the wall is not being routed
in the abstract, it is being routed around settlements; and the
great concern of us and of many others is the creation by the
Israelis of facts on the ground. It is for that and for many other
reasons that we feel so strongly against any further development
in the E1 sector, which would lead to the complete encirclement
of East Jerusalem. Even so, on current plans, access between East
Jerusalem and Ramallah and the south will become more difficult,
which is certainly of very great concern. What do we do? We keep
up the pressure and keep talking to international partners, particularly
the Americans, as I have done pretty continuously, and to the
Israelis.
Chairman: Andrew Mackinlay has indicated
that he wants to come in. Can you be extremely brief?
Q137 Andrew Mackinlay: I can, but
this problem of timing has happened before—but I will move
straight to my point. In the Former Soviet Union there are decaying
lighthouses for example around the coast where there is material
that can be taken by people who want to develop—
Mr Straw: Like light bulbs?
Q138 Andrew Mackinlay: No, and I
am surprised you are quite flippant about that because there is
material which could go into dirty bombs and there is clearly
evidence about that. I am surprised you take that view, Foreign
Secretary because—I am responding. There have also been
reports that the market place for that is in the "Stans".
Certainly there was quite a detailed and authoritative piece on
the BBC PM Programme by Rob Broomby about this. It relates to
what this Committee has drawn attention to in the past about the
access to these materials throughout the Former Soviet Union—by
way of example, lighthouses in remote places, which are looted—and
also the fact that we are concerned about the "Stans"
and we have not got representation for instance in Kyrgyzstan,
where there is also the problem of Islamic refugees from Uzbekistan.
In a sense, because we are under time constraints there are some
related things here. One is the decay and access of stuff around
the Former Soviet Union; second is the market place and the "Stans",
and third is the absence of our representation in this very fragile
country of Kyrgyzstan, which has this issue and the issue of the
refugees from Uzbekistan.
Mr Straw: Please put aside my
flippant remark about light bulbs. We have done a great deal since
the break-up of the Soviet Union to support the safe custody process,
and so has the American Government. The programme has a name,
which I have forgotten. We allocated a lot of money to this. I
am not aware of—I do not recall seeing anything recently
in which serious concerns were being raised about the security
of nuclear arsenals in this—
Q139 Andrew Mackinlay: Foreign Secretary,
I am surprised because you know how—
Mr Straw: We can write to you.[3]
3 Ev 37 Back
| 
