Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
IAN PEARSON
MP AND MS
ALEXANDRA HALL
HALL
23 NOVEMBER 2005
Q100 Sandra Osborne: With respect, I
find that quite surprising because that is the answer this Committee
has had on various occasions—that the Government has no
knowledge—and yet we hear that something like 210 flights
have taken place since 9/11, many of them being in Scotland. I
would have thought the Government would be far more interested
to know urgently about that than appears to be the case if the
Foreign Secretary is about to write now and ask the US. Surely
there are relationships with the US Government where these things
can be discussed.
Ian Pearson: As I say, certainly
we are not aware of UK territory or airspace being used for the
purposes of extraordinary rendition. We have not received any
requests and we have not granted any permission for the use of
UK territory or airspace for such purposes, so we can be very
clear on that. The issue, however, arises because under UK and
international law carriers are not obliged to provide a passenger
list or to obtain permission from the Government to refuel. However,
as I say, we are looking closely into this and we recognise it
is a legitimate area of concern that people have and, as I say,
in our capacity as Presidency of the EU we are taking this matter
up with the United States.
Q101 Sandra Osborne: I would have thought
there would have been more urgency about the situation long before
now. Can you tell me if you are aware of the UNOCHR inquiry about
extraordinary renditions where they are looking at the role of
various countries in that regard? Has the Government been contacted
about it at all?
Ian Pearson: I am advised that
no, we have not been contacted about it yet.
Q102 Mr Keetch: Minister, you used the
expression "UK territory". Does that include Diego Garcia
which is a UK-dependent territory in the Indian Ocean? Does that
include RAF Akrotiri which is a UK sovereign base in Cyprus, and
does that include RAF Gibraltar which is a base in a British colony?
Do you view that as UK territory?
Ian Pearson: I can say that the
US authorities have repeatedly assured us that assertions in the
press that there are or have ever been suspected terrorists and/or
Iraqi prisoners under interrogation at Diego Garcia, or on any
other vessels in British territorial waters, are unfounded. The
British representative on Diego Garcia has also confirmed this
to be the case. I am not sighted on the particular issue of Gibraltar
but I would be extremely surprised indeed if that area had been
used for holding terrorists or prisoners.
Q103 Mr Keetch: I am not suggesting that
Gibraltar or Diego Garcia or Cyprus had been used for holding
prisoners; my concern is, following the questions of Mrs Osborne,
are those bases used to refuel aircraft that may be carrying prisoners
in the process of extraordinary rendition?
Ian Pearson: We have no information
that they are or have been.
Q104 Mr Keetch: Would it be required
of the US authorities to request permission to use Diego Garcia,
for example, for that purpose? Would they require our permission
to do that? I can understand it if they are coming into RAF Northolt,
but if they are coming into Diego Garcia would they require our
permission?
Ian Pearson: I am not quite sure
how air traffic control in Diego Garcia works. Certainly, as I
said just a few moments ago, under UK and international law carriers
are not obliged to provide passenger lists or obtain permission
from the Government to refuel. I would imagine that that would
apply to Gibraltar or Diego Garcia.
Q105 Mr Keetch: I just want to press
you on this. The Government says "UK territory", and
by reference to that most people assume we are talking about the
United Kingdom of Great Britain. I want to know whether that includes
Diego Garcia and whether that includes the sovereign base areas
in Cyprus and any other bases or dependent territories we have
around the world. If the United States is using those bases for
the purpose of extraordinary rendition I would think that is just
as disgraceful as if they were using RAF Northolt or a base in
Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland. I want to be clear
about whether or not the policy of this Government is to deem
Diego Garcia and these other bases as UK territory and, therefore,
not be used for extraordinary rendition.
Ian Pearson: Let me just say on
this that these areas would be regarded as British territory,
to the very best of my understanding, and we are, as I have said,
looking into these allegations and asking the United States about
them. We will obviously want to receive satisfactory answers as
soon as possible.
Q106 Mr Keetch: Would you be prepared
to share those answers with this Committee?
Ian Pearson: Well, I am sure that
that will be possible.[1]
Obviously, the reply, I would imagine, would go to the Foreign
Secretary but I am sure he would want to put this in the public
domain.
Q107 Ms Stuart: I gather that at a formal
meeting on Monday of foreign ministers of the EU our fellow EU
foreign ministers asked the Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, on
behalf of the EU, to write to the United States to ask them about
the existence of CIA prisoners in Eastern Europe. Is that something
which has concerned the United Kingdom before, or was that the
first we were aware of it?
Ian Pearson: We were certainly
aware of press reports that have alleged that the CIA has had
these sites in Eastern Europe. As I indicated, this was discussed
as you rightly say by foreign ministers at the General Affairs
Council on Monday. The UK, reflecting those concerns—the
concerns of other Member States and, indeed, of the UK itself—and
acting in our capacity as EU Presidency, is writing to seek clarification
of the situation from the United States.
Q108 Ms Stuart: We were aware of that
but we were not spurred into action until other foreign ministers
asked us to do so?
Ian Pearson: We discussed this
as we discussed a range of foreign policy issues.
Q109 Ms Stuart: But did not do anything
before then?
Ian Pearson: Well, we have discussions
with the Americans on a regular basis on a variety of issues but,
specifically on this, following this discussion the Foreign Secretary
has agreed to write on this issue to Condoleeza Rice.
Q110 Chairman: Can I take you back to
this question about the American flights? Is it fair to say that
we have a policy of "Don't ask, don't tell"?
Ian Pearson: No, I do not think
it is fair.
Q111 Chairman: We were told in a previous
communication with the FCO that we have had that there is an annual,
renewable agreement with the United States about the use of UK
airports. Is that right?
Ian Pearson: My understanding
is that, as I already indicated to you, carriers are not required
to provide a passenger list nor to obtain permission for refuelling—
Q112 Chairman: That was not my question:
that we have an agreement with the US which is renewed on an annual
basis about US flights or flights originating in the US into UK
airports. Is that true?
Ian Pearson: I am not aware of
this but I will, following you making this point, make investigations.
Q113 Chairman: If it is true, could we
not make sure that in any future agreement, if they are renewed
on an annual basis, we tighten up the procedures so that we have
more information about what comes in and what goes out of the
country?
Ian Pearson: As I say, I am not
sighted on whether any such agreement exists so it would not be
right to speculate on how it might be altered.
Q114 Chairman: I would be grateful if
you could send us a note.
Ian Pearson: Let me make inquiries
into this and I am happy to send you a note on it.[2]
Chairman: Thank you very much.
Q115 Sir John Stanley: Minister, from
what you have just said, can you clarify whether the Foreign Secretary
has now written to the US to ask the specific question as to whether
or not UK airspace has been used for extraordinary rendition flights?
Ian Pearson: My understanding
is that the Foreign Secretary is writing following the General
Affairs and External Relations Council on the issue of "black
sites", but also I believe on the issue of extraordinary
rendition.
Q116 Sir John Stanley: That is too generalised
a response. I asked you a very specific question. It is clear
that the letter is going to go but is the letter going to ask
the specific question whether or not UK airspace has been used
for extraordinary rendition flights? Is that going to be a question
put in the letter?
Ian Pearson: I am not responsible
for drafting the letter but I am sure the Foreign Secretary will
want to take the comments of the Committee on board when considering
drafting the letter. As pointed out to me as well, we will have
to consult with EU partners on the wording of the letter, seeing
as we are writing it in our capacity as Presidency. So I am sure
that it will be a detailed letter that will cover the areas that
both the UK and other Member States have concerns on.
Q117 Sir John Stanley: Should that not
be two letters? Is it not imperative that a letter is written
in a UK national capacity to ask the specific question, as the
British Foreign Secretary, whether UK airspace has been used for
extraordinary rendition flights, and that it should not be merged
with the wider general letter written in our capacity as having
the Presidency of the EU?
Ian Pearson: I do not think that
we should be too bothered on whether there are one or two letters.
What I do think we all want answers on is: "What is going
on?" I think that is the key thing. I am sure that that request
for information will be part of the letter that the Foreign Secretary
writes.
Q118 Sir John Stanley: You will be aware,
Minister, that the detailed press reporting of this has produced
tail numbers of the aircraft in question. There has been no denial
that these are CIA aircraft. The tail numbers have been traced
to companies which have been shown demonstrably by the press inquiries
to be simply front companies where the so-called company's address
and telephone number simply rings out or where there is a brass
name plate and no company behind it. Is it not deeply disturbing
that such aircraft, operated by phantom companies, should without
any question be operating through UK airspace? Is that not a matter
of deep concern?
Ian Pearson: We are certainly
aware of the press reports and allegations made about CIA flights.
We are also aware of the level of information that supports those
press reports. However, they remain allegations at this stage
and it is right that we should make inquiries and ask the United
States for more information about this. That is the stage we are
at, at the moment. I am sure the Committee will want to monitor
developments over the coming weeks on this matter.
Q119 Sir John Stanley: Could you give
the Committee an assurance that officials in your department or,
perhaps, elsewhere in Government know perfectly well what is going
on in terms of extraordinary rendition flights through UK airspace
but have made the decision not to tell Ministers so that Ministers
can hide behind the answer which was given to this Committee on
24 October: "We are not aware of the use of our territory
or airspace for the purpose of extraordinary rendition"?
Ian Pearson: The remains the case,
and I do not think it is right to say that officials are deliberately
keeping information away from Ministers because that is the best
way of protecting us from having to answer difficult questions.
I think it is the simple truth that we are not aware, and that
is the position at the moment, but we are certainly very aware
of the allegations that have been made, we have seen the press
reports and, as I say, the Foreign Secretary is asking the US
for more information and will be writing in his official capacity
as Presidency of the EU to do just that.
1 See Ev 67 Back
2
See Ev 67 Back
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