Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
MR KEN
LIVINGSTONE AND
SIR IQBAL
SACRANIE
13 SEPTEMBER 2005
Q80 Mr Malik: Sir Iqbal,
I think in the last few weeks your organisation has come under
a lot of media scrutiny, a lot of it negative, and I want you
to respond to some of that and also to respond to the belief that
I think is held within parts of the Muslim community that, actually,
you are not terribly representative of that particular community.
I wondered if you wanted to respond to those two things.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: It is important
for all to understand what the Muslim Council of Britain is. It
is a national umbrella body which has, at the moment, 400 affiliates
across the country, it encompasses communities that are basically
from 56 different nationalities. The two main groups, the Sunni
and Shia, are in the organisation. The Muslim community, as I
am sure you are well aware, is indeed very diverse, and it is
the uniqueness of this body that brings in together such diverse
groups on one platform. One also needs to be aware as to how this
organisation has come into being. So in answer to the particular
question as to why it is not representative, the organisation
never claims that it is the body that represents the entire Muslim
community in this country. Prior to its establishment there was
hardly a body that could bring together such diverse views on
one platform as the voice of the Muslim community. Through a period
of consultation for five years—extensive consultation across
the community—it emerged that there was a need for a national
body that can bring together such diverse communities on the basis
of the lowest common denominator agreement. The MCB emerged through
that process. Of course, the body is a democratically elected
body, with elections being held every two years, the term of the
Secretary General is limited to a maximum of two terms and he
has to be elected after two years to be eligible for the second
term. There are 18 committees, each of the committees is shadowing
a government department and the vast majority of the members who
have been working with them are volunteers and are professionals—young
people, women—able to take part in the organisation. The
main school of thought that we have between the Sunni and the
Shia are represented. The scholars within these traditions and
some of the key scholars across the country sit on the Central
Working Committee so that we have regular advice given by the
scholars from different sections of schools of thought. There
was criticism that one section of the community, the Sufi group,
within the community are perhaps not represented. I wish people
would habitually look into the membership list and approach the
members to find out. In fact, one of the inaugural meetings took
place in Birmingham, at a Sufi mosque, Ghamkol Mosque in Birmingham,
hosted by the Convention of Sunni Mosques in the Midlands. The
Convention of Sunni Mosques is the major body of the Sufi school
of understanding and is represented on the Council. So it has
the diverse understanding. Of course we have shortcomings, and
when there is scrutiny of organisations like the Muslim Council
of Britain, I think sometimes it is a good sign. It is a public
body and let the community be aware as to what it is doing, what
are its achievements and what are its shortcomings. However, for
that scrutiny to take place it is only fair that both sides of
the view are known. We have some achievements and very positive
work that has taken place, and that should really be acknowledged.
The shortcomings that we have: what are they? The great difficulty
that we have, as I am sure you are well aware, is that at times
there is a very critical approach, strong criticism, emerging
from the Muslim community, saying that we are not really presenting
the views of the local community to the Cabinet, or able to get
their views across to government departments. We are doing our
best, in terms of the voluntary work in which we are all so involved.
We are not full-time employees—
Q81 Mr Malik: The first
part of the question was really, I suppose, the "P"
word, Panorama, and the allegations, I wondered if you
wanted to comment on some of that, which obviously have been undermining
for you and your organisation.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: That is right.
It is rather sad that such an esteemed programme like Panorama
was able to come out with a programme that was poorly researched
and with factually incorrect information. Just to give one example,
leaving aside the various quotes that were taken out of context,
on a certain website and saying, "Well, out of the 400 organisations,
a particular organisation's website has got certain information",
perhaps we would totally disagree with that, but then to say that
that reflects on the Muslim Council of Britain; we have, as I
mentioned earlier, a diverse membership and people will have views
with which, perhaps, we would not concur. By and large, when these
members do join the Muslim Council of Britain there is a clear
procedure of affiliation and they have to concur and agree with
the constitution of that particular body. All that information
is on a website. One of the beauties of the organisation is to
be totally transparent in terms of our activities: who we meet,
the issues that are discussed, the subjects that are taken on
board—they are all there. On the Panorama problem,
just to come on to that particular point, information like the
reference I have given to the Holocaust Memorial has been in the
public domain in the last couple of days as well. It is very sad
how this can be misconstrued and misleading information is provided
by the media, stating that the MCB is ditching the Holocaust.
No such remarks have been made. In fact, to the contrary, when
we were asked to respond to the consultation paper by the Home
Office in 1999 we made it absolutely clear that the Holocaust
tragedy is something in which all of us share the pain and the
grief of the Jewish community. Of course, there were others who
were persecuted during the Nazi era, the gypsies and the black
community. The point is that it is not just one single tragedy;
there have been many other tragedies over a period of time, and
the message that is supposed to come out of the remembrance day
is "Never again". How do we bring it about in an effective
way? The only effective way is that tragedy should never repeat
itself in any part of the world. We have seen that there have
been killing fields in Cambodia and over a million people have
died in Rwanda; the thousands of people that were killed in Bosnia
and Kosovo (sadly, the last incidents happened to the Muslim community).
There is a strong feeling that somehow lives lost within sections
of the community are less important or less valued. We know that
is not true but let us also come out into the open, and our actions
should explain itself: that we value life equally; all life is
sacred. So one aspect of the Panorama programme was that
they deliberately left out the fact, and said we had not mentioned
Rwanda or other tragedies other than the Muslim tragedies. So
I think these sorts of problems are important, the community organisations
need to be scrutinised and as long as they are balanced, fair
and they reflect the facts on the ground, then I think there is
something to learn from it. Simply to denigrate or malign an organisation
and say that they have not really had a useful purpose or link
it with extremist organisations without looking into the area
of work that has taken place is very, very sad.
Q82 Colin Burgon: Hello,
Sir Iqbal. In your response to Shahid Malik there you got across
the point which I think is very important, that the Muslim community
is not monolithic, and when we look at the Muslim Council for
Britain do you honestly believe that you can—and we have
this problem as politicians because, believe it or not, we are
considered to be out of touch with young people and considered
to be part of the establishment, and you are a Sir. In that sense,
do you think that as a representative of the Muslim Council of
Britain you can connect with some of the young kids from Beeston
(because I am a Leeds MP) who have taken what I think is quite
a perverse view on the events of 7 July and 21 July? Do you think
you are the person or you are the organisation to connect with
them? Is it wrong for people to think that the Muslim Council
of Britain is the organisation that can actually combat extremism
within the Muslim community?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: One has to
understand the structure of the Muslim Council of Britain. It
is not based on personalities, it is an institution. That institution
has membership at three levels: it has national bodies, which
are already in existence—more than 18 of those already affiliated
to the Council; we have got regional organisations that have got
membership in various regions—for example, the Federation
of the Mosque in Leicestershire, that has about 15 or 20 of their
own mosques, and the Lancashire Council of Mosques which has got
40-odd mosques registered under that regional umbrella body—and
then we have got the institutions and mosques across the country.
Within the national affiliates we also have the Federation of
Islamic Societies—the Islamic Society of Britain, young
Muslims and young Muslim organisations. These bodies are very
much connected to the grassroots community, and it is through
these affiliated bodies that we are able to get into the community.
MCB does not itself have a direct link with the individual Muslim
member of the community, per se, on a one-to-one basis;
it is a body of organisations and institutions, and these bodies
and organisations primarily are mosques on the ground. It is through
the feedback that comes to us from the mosques, from the institutions,
that we base our policies. In terms of how we respond to consultation
papers and the approaches that have been made through departments
in terms of what are the needs of the community. How the community
can play its important role is through that communication.
Q83 Colin Burgon: There
was a perception before July that many Muslims were reluctant
to accept there is a problem with terrorism and terrorist sympathies
in the Muslim community. Even today we have prominent Muslim leaders
who question whether Muslims were involved in the bombings and
have even suggested that various video tapes that were seen were
fake. What is your take on this? Do you accept that such a denial
is damaging both to the Muslim community in Britain and in the
overall effort to tackle extremism?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: When we talk
about a state of denial, I think it has to be looked at in a clear
manner as to what we refer to by that. By and large, the number
of people that have approached us have questioned: "Can Muslims
ever carry out such vicious, criminal acts?" This is something
which we have to try to understand. As a believer this is something
for which we have come out openly with a statement issued by the
prominent scholars in this country. The Muslim Council of Britain
convened the meeting, and has explicitly given out the position
of Islam in terms of taking innocent lives: not just utterly condemned
it but in terms of the punishment that can be accorded to such
individuals. This is what really makes one question. It is not
possible that someone who practises Islam, who attends mosques,
would carry out such an act? I did ask those individuals: why
are they doubting? I was in a privileged position when I had discussions
with the police, and the information that was presented to us
made it clear to us that, yes, the people who were involved were
Muslims. It hurt us immensely when the cry outside is that it
is linked with Islam or something to do with the strands of teaching
of Islam or whatever. One needs to understand where these people
are coming from, and the information that has been presented to
them as to the proof as to who these were and the initial disbelief.
I met the families of some of the bombers and they were simply
astounded as well: someone who had lived within them. They could
not accept the fact that a person within their own would carry
out such an act. I think it is more about making it clear that
a Muslim, a true believer, a believer who believes in the teachings
of Islam, who is a proper follower, would not carry out such a
criminal act.
Q84 Mrs Cryer: We talked
earlier with the Home Secretary about the various meetings that
the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and various other Home
Office Ministers have had both here in London and in the provinces
with members of the Muslim community. I mention Shahid Malik was
there as well, and we had an excellent meeting in Bradford where
there must have been, I would think, 200 people there, but unfortunately
only about 5% women, and that was raised by those women—why
were they in such a small minority? I wonder if you can suggest
anything that is going on or anything that you think could be
done to get through more to grassroots Muslim opinion, particularly
young people and particularly women, and, also, comment on the
situation in some of our universities where mainstream Muslim
opinion is being sidelined and being pushed to one side by Hizb
ut-Tahrir. I think that is very unfortunate because the people
who are in those universities in Islamic societies and have been
pushed to one side are our hope for tomorrow. They are the people
who could be the Iqbal Sacranies of tomorrow, the role models
of tomorrow. I wonder if you could just comment on a few of those
things.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: Just before
the tragic events of 7/7 the Muslim Council of Britain was looking
into some key issues that we had raised: how do you ensure that
our youth in the community are able to play that important mainstream
role? In terms of participation in all spectrums of our daily
lives, there has been a tremendous improvement but we still think
it is lacking. How do we combat those extreme views that are prevailing
within a small section of the youth community? The answer to that
was us setting up three important working groups: one was to deal
with the youth, and that work was expedited immediately after
7/7. The first report was presented to the meeting in Manchester
only two weeks ago, and we are hopeful that by the end of the
month the full report will be prepared. That will hopefully come
out with key action points in terms of areas of greater participation
of the community, particularly the youth, in the mainstream and
different areas, and also how best that we can combat this extremism
that prevails in certain parts of the community. Where is this
radicalisation coming from? That would, hopefully, be able to
be explored further. At the same time, we are also looking into
the women's group. It is crucial that women play an important
role in the affairs of our nation, and more so in the community;
the respect they command, the role they have as far as Islam is
concerned, is very clear, and it is a very important role they
have to play, but how come that there are few women? The Muslim
Council has taken steps to ensure that even in the Central Working
Committee we have women co-opted on important committees. At present
we have at least three women who chair important committees that
deal with the general issues. So we are actually working in that
field as well. Through our affiliates of the tradition of Islamic
societies we have had meetings with them. Only two weeks ago there
was an important conference held at the GLA where they played
a very important role and they identified areas of how the youth,
particularly in the universities, are able to play that role.
We are looking into how we should see that the mainstream view
prevails and comes out. It is of course in the media (generally
it has been a standard position) the rhetoric that comes from
the extreme elements, and that is what gives a greater news story,
because they come up with some ridiculous statements and so on,
and is given maximum coverage. So I think, on the one hand, there
is this concern that we understand and we accept, but there are
moves at the moment to combat that, and more so now after this
tragic event of 7/7.
Q85 Mrs Cryer: What is
your view of the proscription of Hizb ut-Tahrir and other extremist
groups? Do you think it would help or just make martyrs of them?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: We had a clear
statement issued when the PM made the announcement about the proscription
of this group. We believe that banning groups is not the answer.
This will not bring an end to the concerns that we are experiencing
in the community. There was an important letter that I sent out
after the Madrid bombing that went out to all the mosques across
the country, urging them to be aware of extreme elements coming
to the mosques, preaching, getting the message of hatred out.
How do we combat it? We at that time advised that we have to ensure
that these people are not given a platform in the mosques. There
was a concern at that time. Fortunately, the vast majority of
the mosques adhered to that and these elements were simply not
allowed to preach their message of hatred or which we felt was
a message totally contradictory to the teachings of Islam—they
were not allowed in the mosque. What happened was they moved underground
and they moved into centres and other places where they were able
to bring together certain groups. So I think we run a danger with
these elements, but as long as they do not promote violence, they
do not incite hatred, they are fully aware that the law of the
country would prevail and would be firm in terms of treating such
acts which they are in breach of, then we should not really have
a problem. But those who contradict this, then of course the law
should take its full course.
Q86 Mr Clappison: Sir
Iqbal, we heard from the Commissioner of Metropolitan Police his
view that relations between the police and the Muslim community
are, in fact, better. Is that your view as well?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: Yes. I think
it has improved a lot. There has been better communication. The
setting up of the Muslim Safety Forum was an important and essential
move, and we need to understand the historical background, as
I referred to earlier. Bearing that in mind, when you look today
at the situation, in fact the support that has been given by the
GLA and other important institutions, encouraging that communication,
I think, has helped a lot towards a better understanding.
Q87 Mr Clappison: Is stop
and search something which still crops up as an issue?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: Yes, there
are concerns that we have in terms of the disproportionality of
stop and searches being carried out. This is in terms of the statistics
that have been made available at the time. I believe now, yes,
there are measures being taken. We heard from the Commissioner
earlier on that that is one aspect that they are certainly dealing
with.
Mr Clappison: I very much understand
the concerns you are expressing about that but we have taken evidence
(I think the Chairman confirmed this) about the incidence of stop
and search and it perhaps does not bear the complexion which some
people put on it in their comments, and the number of particularly
Asian people who are stopped and searched, perhaps, is not the
same proportion as some people been suggesting, but I understand
the concerns that you have expressed, understandably, on behalf
of your community.
Q88 Nick Harvey: On the
issue of stop and search, Sir Iqbal, there was a report in The
Independent newspaper this morning looking at the guidelines
that have been given by the British Transport Police in regard
to stop and search. These start off, as you would expect, warning
officers to avoid any sort of stereotyping and talking about the
need for a "targeted intelligence-led approach" and
then it says: "However, the suspects in the July cases have
been Asian, West Indian and East African", which seems to
depart entirely from the starting note. Have you got any comment
or observation about that?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: This perhaps
reflects the earlier comment made by the head of the Transport
Police, Mr Johnston, where I think inferences were drawn that
perhaps attention should be given more to people from Asian backgrounds,
these sorts of comments are most unhelpful. As you rightly said,
I think we have heard earlier this morning, all stop and search
or any of the activity in terms of counter-terrorism must be intelligence-led,
and that is the way forward. It happens to be that the criminals
that carried out the atrocious act happened to be Muslims of Asian
background. The people who were then subsequently arrested for
21 July happened to be from the Somali background.
Q89 Chairman: Sir Iqbal,
just to stop you going too much into the detail of the charges
against individuals because of the sub judice procedures.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: That is in
terms of background.
Q90 Mr Clappison: As our
Committee found in the evidence that we took in our previous inquiry,
the actual proportion of Asians stopped and searched in the Metropolitan
area, in particular, was very much in line with the size of the
Asian population in the Metropolitan area and we made our finding,
which is there in the report, that the community was not being
unreasonably targeted, but we do understand the concerns which
you express.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: In terms of
the Asians, I would perhaps agree, but if you were able to dissect
that further and find out in terms of the faith communities, then
I believe that information data is not really made available—
Q91 Mr Clappison: It is
a difficult point.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: This is the
real problem that we have been facing, that if that data was available
in terms of the faith background of the Asian people then perhaps
the answer would have come, but from the feedback that we get
from the community we can certainly say that the profiling in
terms of the people who are being stopped, it is very, very clear
that they are predominantly those with the Islamic faith background.
Q92 Mr Clappison: Could
I put another point to you which the Commissioner mentioned, about
the reaction which there was immediately after the July bombings?
I think he said that whilst there had been a rise in hatred crimes,
it had only risen a little and they had not seen a big rise. Would
that be your experience as well, and do you agree that that suggests
that there is some robustness in our community relations?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: I was slightly
concerned with the remarks made by the Commissioner in terms of
the increase in the hate crimes, because I think there were statistics
being offered by the Metropolitan Police which suggested there
was an increase of about 600% in terms of the hate crimes in the
Metropolitan area. That needs to be confirmed because that is
the information I have available. Very rightly it has been mentioned
earlier that it is not all the police authorities in the country
that monitor or record hate crimes, but I think we need to be
clear. Generally, of course, there has been a backlash in the
community and the community has suffered in many, many ways through
the arson attacks in mosques and community centres being vandalised,
but again I think it is to the credit of the community and the
advice we offered to them, in terms of even at that time of pressure
that was on them, that they were not provoked into taking retaliatory
measures. Again, when we look into all the negativity that comes
out, there are some very positive points there which do not seem
to come into the open.
Mr Livingstone: Can I give the
figures that I was given yesterday, which is that for specifically
faith-hate crimes in London in the three weeks before 7 July we
recorded 72, and in the three weeks after 7 July we recorded 257.
These are now rapidly falling back to the level before. Lest people
think: "This sounds a horrifying level of violence",
overwhelmingly these are examples of verbal abuse, mainly by European-origin
men against women wearing distinctive clothing, and quite specifically
not actually attacks on Muslim men. So a lot of this is quite
cowardly, low-level background stuff and the vast majority of
Londoners, I think, behave with incredible determination that
they are not going to be divided. We are getting back very rapidly
to the normal background level of incidents we used to see.
Q93 Chairman: Could you
just say where those figures come from?
Mr Livingstone: I suspect those
will have come from the police, but they come via my office.
Q94 Chairman: It is not
separate Mayoral Office monitoring, it is through the police?
Mr Livingstone: We only have the
data we get from the Met.
Q95 Mr Clappison: We heard
the Commissioner and I think we would all agree that we need to
be vigilant against any such types of attack, but there would
appear to be some considerable robustness in relations between
communities. Can I go back to one matter you have touched on already,
Sir Iqbal, in the context of community relations and what you
were saying about holocaust education and the Holocaust Memorial
Day? I understand the points you make about other events which
have taken place in the world, but can I just gently suggest to
you that it would be a mistake to try and alter the Holocaust
Memorial Day because it has failed to prevent other examples of
holocaust in the world, the nature of the Holocaust Memorial day
being a day to remember the unique horror of the Holocaust in
Europe in the 1940s and as a warning to try and stop such holocausts
ever taking place again. It would be a mistake to go into that
to try and alter the character of that Holocaust Memorial Day,
would it not?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: I entirely
agree, and that is not the object of our viewpoint that has been
presented. This has certainly been misconstrued in the national
media. Our position has been very, very clear that we recognise
and accept the enormous hurt and the uniqueness of that tragic
event that needs to be remembered—there are no two ways
about it—but what we are saying is that with that event
the other events that have taken place over a period of time also
involve the loss of human life, and it would be only proper that
we recognise all such tragedies. If there is a difficulty in bringing
the other tragedies and incorporating with the Holocaust event,
then let there be a national genocide day that can recognise in
the same manner all other lives. I am sure that is not asking
for too much, particularly for all the various communities, from
the African, Bosnian, Kosovans, Cambodians, or whatever. We need
to send a very powerful message that we value life and we value
life equally.
Q96 Mr Clappison: I think
you are aware that the Holocaust Memorial Day has also commemorated
genocide, as in the case of Rwanda and other examples of genocide,
but it is there to recognise as well the unique horror of what
took place in Europe, with the loss of all those lives.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: One does not
dispute that fact.
Q97 Mr Clappison: You
would be happy for the Holocaust Memorial Day to continue as today,
commemorating the Holocaust and the other genocide holocausts
which have taken place?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: That is precisely
the position that we have, yes.
Q98 Mr Clappison: Can
I turn to the Mayor and ask him if he feels that the community
cohesion in London, which we have heard about, would be maintained
if there were further bombings? What is your view on that?
Mr Livingstone: Clearly, we will
not know until that happens, but the situation that we saw with
the first bombings and then the attempted bombings two weeks apart,
we have come through that without shaking what I think is the
most advanced city in the world in terms of how far we have gone
down the road of accepting diversity and living in tolerance.
If we look at not faith-hate crime but the totality of racist
incidents in London, they have fallen by 35% over the last five
years, against the background of two Commissioners of Police who
have made it much more a part of the focus of policing. If anything,
one would have expected those figures to go up. In all the polling
we do, Londoners are quite distinctly different in their attitudes
to immigration, asylum and multiculturalism than anywhere else
in Britain, much more accepting and committed to that. Londoners
are not fools; they know that the economic success of this city
depends on its openness and its tolerance, and therefore we have
quite strikingly different figures in all these areas to the UK
national polling.
Q99 Mr Clappison: Part
of the background to community cohesion is keeping out people
from this country who come to peddle hate and extreme views, and
that has been done by governments of all political persuasions
using their powers to exclude and deport undesirable people. You
have heard the proposals of the Home Secretary as to how he proposes
to take forward proposals to deport and exclude people. What is
your view on what he is proposing?
Mr Livingstone: No one is going
to object—well, some people will but the vast majority of
people will not object—to anything that increases the safety
of people. Therefore, where you have some completely off-the-wall
and unrepresentative individual who is peddling hate they may
have no more than a handful of supporters but they have a chance
to influence young minds and that is the danger. What we have
to be very careful about, though, is actually not creating martyrs.
I cannot remember who it was mentioned the situation with Hizb
ut-Tahrir—ie, here is an organisation that campaigns for
a return to the Caliphate. About 10 years ago they challenged
me to a debate in Brent, about 300 young Muslims turned up for
this, and I won. Virtually no young Muslims in Brent East wanted,
as their prime concern in life, to return to the Caliphate; they
wanted to get a house, their kids into good schools, secure employment—they
shared the concerns of the other citizens. Therefore, I think,
to ban them would immediately make them the focus of campaigning
and sympathy and support. Where there is violence, where there
are groups peddling hate, we have had groups preaching anti-Semitism,
I have banned Al Mujahiroun from using Trafalgar Square and prosecuted
them when they ignored that ban. I remember all the mistakes that
were made at the height of the IRA campaign in the 70s: how we
ended up imprisoning the wrong people and much that we did was
counterproductive, and I think we need to be absolutely clear
in our scrutiny of these measures that we do not make similar
mistakes.
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