Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-110)
MR KEN
LIVINGSTONE AND
SIR IQBAL
SACRANIE
13 SEPTEMBER 2005
Q100 Mr Clappison: You
have your own very distinctive views on those, and we would not
expect you to change your views which you have held over a long
period of time. On the subject of excluding people, you have made
your views clear about Mr al Qaradawi and I would not expect you
to change your view here today; others, including myself, perhaps
take a different view about him. In the light of what has taken
place, would you be prepared to listen to those who have expressed
concern about allowing somebody such as Mr al Qaradawi into the
country? I know there are a range of views on Mr al Qaradawi,
but it is on the record what he has said about the use of force,
of terrorism in certain circumstances. Would you be prepared to
at least listen to those who are concerned about what he has said
about the use of terror and what he has said about other things
as well, which I am sure you are well familiar with?
Mr Livingstone: I, of course,
am engaged in extensive correspondence and these issues are raised
at many meetings. Having been on the receiving end of the British
media for some 25 years myself I am not prepared to accept what
I read in the tabloid press is someone's views when I have met
them myself and heard them say quite distinctly contrary things.
I find myself in complete agreement with the internal Foreign
Office document that was prepared as a brief for the Home Office
on the subject of Dr Qaradawi, which completely corroborates the
stand I have taken on every single point. You have read many alarming
things, I know, about Dr Qaradawi's views about gays and about
women, but the reality is that many of these come from translated
sources which are hostile to the Sheik or are deliberate misinformation.
The truth is Sheik Qaradawi, if I can think of a parallel that
Christians would understand, is I think very similar to the position
of Pope John XXIII—ie, absolutely saying Islam must engage
with the world, we must have democracy in the Middle East, we
must actually accept the changing role of women. He is, of all
the Muslim thinkers in the world today, the most powerful, progressive
force for change and engaging Islam with Western values. If we
cannot talk to Qaradawi, you will not really be talking to anybody
from the Muslim community.
Q101 Mr Clappison: That
is your view on Mr al Qaradawi.
Mr Livingstone: And the Foreign
Office.
Q102 Mr Clappison: And
there are a range of views on Mr al Qaradawi. When you have met
him, to go into the question of what his views actually are, did
you discuss with him his views on the use of terror, on the use
of suicide bombers? Do you accept that he has made certain comments
advocating the use of suicide bombers—of women and child
suicide bombers? Or are you saying that is not the case?
Mr Livingstone: He makes quite
clear his position, that he believes that in the situation in
Palestine and Israel, where all that Palestinians have is their
bodies against Israeli tanks and aeroplanes, he does not condemn—and
you can interpret him saying he actually is prepared to endorse—the
use of suicide bombing in that circumstance. I do not agree with
him. But then I do not agree with the policies of the Israeli
Government either. He was virtually the first person to condemn
the attacks on London. He did not just condemn the attacks on
America on 9/11 but he went up and donated his own blood for the
relief operation that then took place. If you read the Foreign
Office document that has now been linked on so many websites,
you will see that it points out that his views on the Middle East
are shared by a majority of Muslims worldwide and a majority of
Muslims in this country. We just have to accept that in a war
zone—and it has been a war zone for all my lifetime—very
unpleasant things are done by all sides. I am in the luxury of
being able to condemn all violence because I am in an established
parliamentary democracy; I do not even have to throw a rock. Yet
other people do not have that luxury. I do not know what I would
be doing if I was an Uzbek dealing with that government. Might
I resort to terrorism? Might I resort to violence? Or would I
wait to be killed by the regime? It is all very easy for us who
lead largely protected and comfortable lives in established democracies—let
us not forget a lot of people do not have that luxury.
Q103 Mr Clappison: There
are a range of views on the Middle East, as we know. There has
been, of course, loss of life on both sides in the Middle East.
Would you be at least prepared to listen to those who are concerned
about Dr al Qaradawi and any future visits which he makes to this
country? In the light of the need for community cohesion with
the communities that there are in London?
Mr Livingstone: Absolutely.
Q104 Chairman: Could you
make a final answer to this question, because I think we are going
over the same ground?
Mr Livingstone: Yes, is the answer.
Q105 Mr Winnick: You say,
Mr Livingstone, that the person who came to Britain and whom you
warmly welcomed, his views have been misrepresented. I have a
paper from the library which would seem to indicate that what
was said about him is true. He says, for example: "If I am
asked at the present time is a Muslim allowed to marry a Jew,
my answer would be no. That to marry a Muslim would be like marrying
a Jewish woman spy working for Israel." Mr Livingstone, you
should receive credit for the manner in which, when it was unpopular,
you campaigned that people who want sexually to go with their
own gender should not be penalised in any way. As I say, you took
a stand on that issue. This particular gentleman said this, if
I may be allowed very briefly, Chair, to quote: "Muslim jurists
hold different views concerning the punishment for this abominable
practice. Should it be the same as the punishment for fornication"
(obviously he is not in favour of fornication) "or should
both active and passive participants be put to death? While such
punishments may seem cruel they have been suggested to maintain
the purity of Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted
enemies." These are extremist views. They could come from
the BNP or such like. I would ask you this, if I may, Mr Livingstone:
if a Rabbi came over from Israel, one of the extremists (and Islam
has no monopoly when it comes to extremists—all religions
have) with these views, which I would call abominable, regarding
Muslims, as this person has referred to Jews, or about homosexuals
or what he calls "fornication"—whatever that may
mean—would you really welcome such a Rabbi here and say,
"Well, all points of view should be heard"?
Mr Livingstone: Can I say that
what you have forgotten to include was the question mark at the
end of your quote. I strongly suspect that this 79-year old Muslim
cleric does not edit this website himself personally, and when
you plough through it much of it, like most religious websites,
it is a series of questions of a philosophical nature. When I
met him he made clear in my presence that it was enough for someone
to reject homosexuality; they were not required to take any action
against those who practise it. We are not going to see Dr al Qaradawi
on a Gay Rights march, but neither will I see the Pope on a Gay
Rights march, and I will meet him. On the issue of marrying, I
would need to check all these sources because many of them come
from memory—
Q106 Mr Winnick: He wants
people put to death.
Mr Livingstone: He does not. I
have met him and he has made that absolutely clear. He does not
believe one should be a homosexual but he makes absolutely clear
there should be no physical attacks on homosexuals. The trouble
with a lot of these things is they come from websites where the
translation is quite tendentious. All I would say is speak to
him yourself, if you wish to do so. On the question of marriage,
I understand it is not lawful for a Jew to marry a Muslim in Israel.
I do not agree with that either. I am lucky, I am an atheist;
I can start with a clean sheet on all these things. Therefore
it makes me acceptable to most Londoners.
Q107 Chairman: Thank you,
Mr Livingstone. We must draw the session to an end now. Sir Iqbal?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: There is one
very important point—
Q108 Chairman: Not, please,
further on the Qaradawi question, because I think we have had
quite enough.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: One issue
that perhaps did not come up in my answers early on was the various
concerns have been expressed by different members, on earlier
questioning as to what has really caused this tragic event on
7/7 and how do we know as to what needs to be done in terms of
trying to find out.
Q109 Chairman: You may
well be right that there are important issues which we have not
touched on, either directly in questions to you or in the sessions
earlier, but we allowed ourselves three hours and I think we need
to draw the session to a close.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: Just one sentence.
Q110 Chairman: One sentence.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: We have actually
requested the Government to carry out a public inquiry on this
incident, and we have already submitted the papers to the Department
and will be sending copies to members along with other papers
as well.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
Can I say that as it happens this Committee does not have any
members representing London constituencies but we are all Londoners
for at least part of the year. On 6 July we all saw, if we had
not seen it before, the video about London which was presented
as part of the successful Olympic bid, and I think we would all
agree that portrayed the multi-racial, multi-cultural, open city
that we live in for part of the year we are all anxious to see,
and all of our efforts today and those who have given evidence
to us today in different ways are working to make sure that is
the reality of the future of this great city. Can I thank both
our witnesses and the others we had earlier today.
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