Select Committee on Home Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 43-59)

RT HON BARONESS SCOTLAND OF ASTHAL QC, MS CHRISTINE KNOTT, MR PHIL WHEATLEY AND MR JOHN BOYINGTON

8 NOVEMBER 2005

  Mr Wheatley: I am Phil Wheatley, Director General of the Prison Service, that is, the public sector prisons.

  Ms Knott: I am Christine Knott, I am the National Offender Manager and currently the Acting Chief Exec of NOMS.

  Mr Boyington: I am John Boyington, Director of Health and Offender Partnerships which is a joint post between the Home Office and the Department of Health.

  Q43 Chairman: Thank you. Minister?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: First, may I say what a pleasure it is actually to appear before this Committee, not least because you are dealing with an issue that is absolutely critical to all of us. I would very much welcome this few minutes to update the Committee on what the figures currently are. Now, as many of you will know, recent trends of self-inflicted deaths in prison are going on a downward trend rather than an upward trend and that is quite a positive thing, but we think it is probably because of the combination of reasons: the effect of giving a high priority over the last four years to addressing sentencing issues[3]; the introduction of improved risk identification and care arrangements, and I know that we will later on talk about the ACCT change which has come about; and really a stress on mental health inreach and detoxification. That is one of the reasons, I think, why John Boyington is here with us because they have made a really important advance. This year's numbers are thankfully down by about 25% at present in the calendar year, that is 66 compared to 88, and 20% in the financial year, that is 47 compared to 59. However, I must make it absolutely plain that we are by no means complacent because we have to keep on driving these figures downwards, but I think the short-term trends can be quite misleading, so what we have tried to do is to look over the wider pattern. The rate has reduced two years running, that is from 148.3 in 2002-03 to 126.2 in 2003-04 and 113.7 in 2004-05. I think the prisoners we are looking at are a recognised high-risk group within the Government's wider strategy. The overcrowding issue is obviously a matter of concern, but it does not appear at the moment necessarily, as such, to lead to more deaths. As many of you know, cell-sharing can in fact be a protective factor and it is one of the factors we have to take into account. I think also, just to highlight the nature of the prison population that we currently have, we are dealing with a very vulnerable, highly vulnerable group, many of whom have life experiences which make them innately vulnerable and have had quite a high incidence of attempted suicide before they get into the prison estate. More than 40 prisons now will implement the new ACCT during 2005 and they are doing that in close collaboration with the regional mental health fora, so the inreach teams working together with prison staff and the greater training has started to make a difference. Those are just the sort of preliminary issues I wanted to touch on because I think they do go to many of the things which you may be interested in.

  Chairman: That is very helpful, thank you.

  Q44 Mr Winnick: Minister, you have been mentioning, as indeed did your memorandum to the Committee, the numbers involved in suicides and your own memorandum, as far as the numbers are concerned, says that in 2001 it was 95, the following year 94 and last year 95. Where is the improvement?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Really if you look at the numbers coming into our prison estate, they have gone up, so if you look then at the percentages of people who are attempting or committing suicide, those figures, relatively speaking, demonstrate a downward trend.

  Q45 Mr Winnick: So it is an average of the prison population with the actual total number of course, as your memorandum stated, the figures which I have just quoted, being the loss of lives involved?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: That is right.

  Q46 Mr Winnick: But you are saying it is an improvement of a kind, and I am sure you, no less than anyone else, deplore suicide.

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Absolutely.

  Q47 Mr Winnick: Exactly, and that is not in question, Minister. Your position is that if you take the prison population, it is an improvement?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Yes.

  Q48 Mr Winnick: In fact this year, as you say, 64 so far unfortunately have taken their lives and there were 13 in June alone. Is that not a much higher average in a month of such tragedies and is there any particular reason for it, as far as you are concerned?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: We looked very carefully to see whether there was any pattern. As you can imagine, up until June the picture did look much better than it had been. There was a growing degree of confidence that the sort of new approaches that we were putting in place were having a beneficial effect. We looked very carefully to see whether there was any particular trend which would have caused this quite sudden acceleration, and we could not find or identify a particular reason, although we are continuing to look with great care. What you will notice is that after June the picture returns to one of a more normal level. One of the really difficult things we have found is making any judgment which is simply focused on one particular month; you end up having to look over a longer period to see where the trends are going, but it was a matter of huge concern. I certainly can assure the Committee that what happens every morning is that I have on my desk the numbers who have died or been injured the night before and we keep a really tight view on what is happening and I was extremely alarmed during that month. It was a very hard month for the Service, all of whom were trying really hard to understand what was actually causing this one.

  Q49 Mr Winnick: And very hard of course for the loved ones left behind.

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Absolutely, because I think it is their families, but also I think, just to share this with the Committee, the sense of commitment and bereavement that happens with the family and indeed with those inside who were trying to care for them because some of the prisoners who will have befriended those who commit suicide and take their own lives also thereafter need quite a lot of care because they are adversely affected too, so every death has a real impact.

  Q50 Mr Winnick: June, if I can just for a moment concentrate on June when 13 took their lives, was that not a month when the prison population increased more than on previous occasions?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I think the prison population has continued to increase.

  Q51 Mr Winnick: In June in particular?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: In June there was an increase, but I think if you look at the trend, you cannot say it was so out of kilter with the increase thereafter to make it particularly significant. You know that our highest prison number was in November and it continued to rise, so I understand the concern that is expressed there, but there is not a direct correlation between the increase in number and the number of deaths because if you look at the different establishments in which those occurred, the picture is very different in each of them.

  Q52 Mr Winnick: But you agree that in June the prison population went up more in that particular month than in previous months?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I am not sure. I know that impressionistically that is not my view, but I must say it is because I have been watching the way in which the prison population has been rising and, therefore, June, when I look back on it, does not seem to be the highest point. The highest point actually was reached on 1 November.

  Mr Wheatley: It went up 700 in June.

  Q53 Mr Winnick: That is more than usual in a month?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I have just been told it was less than a 500 jump, but we will check the maths.[4]

  Chairman: Perhaps you can come back to us on that.

  Q54 Mr Winnick: The position of the Government, and I suppose in this respect it is almost identical to previous governments, is that it is the same effect, but it is very difficult to demonstrate causal links between prison numbers and deaths in custody, but do you not accept that it is very difficult for people outside the Home Office really to accept that there is no link between the ever-increasing numbers in prison and those unfortunately tragically taking their lives?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I think it is absolutely reasonable for people to raise that question because we raise that question ourselves and we are looking very carefully to see what the empirical data tells us, not least because we need to use that information to recast our response to it, what we do about it. One of the things we have been able to do is to look at the changes that are necessary in terms of the overall culture that takes place, but also the effect that ACCT has had because it is a different way of dealing with a number of the issues that arise from people who do take their lives, for example, having better training, having a better link with the healthcare services, creating an environment which lessens the degree of stress on the population as a whole, but taking a much more caring and therapeutic approach towards the management of the risk. Now, in those prisons where ACCT has been rolled out, we do see a marked difference and a reduction, so we know, the early indications are, that this method of working can have a material effect. The reason I am saying that there is not a direct correlation between the overcrowding is almost perversely that the sharing of cells can act as a disinhibitor for those who want to take their lives and indeed cushion them, so you have quite an interesting difference in that and that is why we cannot say that overcrowding as such causes an increase, but there are a lot of other things that may be a consequence of overcrowding which can add to the risk factors and those are things we have to look at.

  Q55 Mr Winnick: In your speech in the recent debate in the House of Lords, you make the point about shared cells as a possible deterrent to suicide, but would you accept that if anything possible in any way had been done to stabilise the prison population, say, over the last 10 years, then there would have been a real reduction in suicides or do you not accept that at all?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: It is not a case of accept or not accept; there is not the data to justify that conclusion, but what we must know is that if you have a greater amount of time, if there is an opportunity to skill people in a way that enables them to meet the needs of prisoners in a more holistic way, one would hope that that would materially affect the atmosphere, the culture in prisons and one would hope that might have a reduction in the self-harm and in those who take their lives. All I can say to you is that there is no empirical data that I have which demonstrates that and in fact the evidence that we have been able either to keep stable or reduce the numbers committing suicide and taking their own lives during a time when we are increasing the numbers tends not to justify that. I am saying that I understand the way people feel about it, but I am looking incredibly hard at the data and the data does not justify that conclusion.

  Q56 Chairman: One of the things which has been put to us by the non-governmental organisations is that at a time when 50% of prisons are overcrowded, actually a disproportion, more than 50%, of suicides took place in the overcrowded prisons. You say there is no empirical data, but that surely gives some suggestion that the conditions of stress, which might help to encourage suicide, are greater in the overcrowded prisons, otherwise, there really should be no difference between the suicide rates in the two kinds of prison.

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: The difficulty of course is that those prisons are quite often local prisons. The local prisons have a greater degree of churn and the local prisons tend to have prisoners who, by their very nature, are likely to be on the more vulnerable lists, so if you look at the numbers who had tried to commit suicide before coming into prison, the other risk factors which will make up the likelihood of someone taking their life, those factors, if put in any situation, tend to increase the number who then want to commit suicide. Therefore, what I am saying is that it is a really complex issue. It is too easy a correlation to make to say, "Oh well, therefore, overcrowding equals an increase in suicide", because it does not. If you disaggregate those issues, you see that it is those issues which will influence whether or not the rate goes up or down.

  Q57 Mr Winnick: Lady Scotland, you chair what is known as the Ministerial Round Table on Suicide.

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Yes.

  Q58 Mr Winnick: How often does it meet and what precisely does it do?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: What the Round Table does is to bring together all of those who are responsible for suicide reduction so that we can look at the policies that go right across the piece. One of the things we have absolutely understood is that the changes that need to be made are not changes which simply are within the prison estate, but it is the way we work with health and the way we work with other organisations that makes the difference, so the Round Table is really our opportunity to learn best practice and seek to implement it. The importance of the Round Table is that the people who are actually participating in that Round Table are the ones who are going to have to implement the changes in order to bring about the success we hope to achieve together.

  Q59 Mr Winnick: So it is the Prison Service basically?

  Baroness Scotland of Asthal: It is not just the Prison Service. It was established by the Prison Service five years ago, and it covers deaths in approved premises, but it also has its discussions increasingly extended to related issues affecting deaths and vulnerabilities of offenders in the community. There are generally three meetings a year and frequently in the prison setting because holding the meetings in prisons enables prisoners to attend, it provides members with an opportunity of seeing the prison at first hand and talking to prisoners and the Samaritan-trained listeners in particular make a very valuable contribution.


3   Note by witness: The intended reference was to "safer custody issues". Back

4   See Ev 43 Back


 
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