Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
RT HON
BARONESS SCOTLAND
OF ASTHAL
QC, MS CHRISTINE
KNOTT, MR
PHIL WHEATLEY
AND MR
JOHN BOYINGTON
8 NOVEMBER 2005
Q60 Mr Winnick: We have had evidence
just before you from the Howard League and the Prison Reform Trust.
Are they involved with, and invited to, the Round Table?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Yes,
they are.
Q61 Mr Winnick: They do sit on the Round
Table?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Yes.
Membership is Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons, the Prisons
and Probation Ombudsman representatives, the Youth Justice Board,
the National Probation Service, Prison Health, the Samaritans,
the Howard League, the Prison Reform Trust, INQUEST, the Independent
Monitoring Board, the Safer Custody Group, which was formerly
part of HM Prison Service, and has now migrated to the headquarters
of NOMS the Secretariat of the Round Table, and we are inviting
too my colleague Rosie Winterton from Health to come and join
us on that Round Table, so it is really all of those people who
have been properly exercised about this issue for quite some considerable
time. We are looking, and we looked at the last Round Table, at
a programme to try and drive this agenda forward over the next
few months and we are going to continue to meet three times a
year, and we will be able to report back and see how far we are
going. We have taken very seriously a recommendation made by the
Committee in terms of having a group who really focus on this
and deliver it. One of the things we were conscious of, however,
is that it is important that the practitioners, the people who
are going to be responsible for delivering, should participate
in this so that we really have an engine to drive it forward and
people do not say, "It's not me, it's somebody else".
Q62 Mr Winnick: Will the minutes be given
to this Committee?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: We
can certainly look at that. What we have tried to do in the Round
Table is to create an environment where people are brutally frank
about what they think and certainly we would be very happy to
look at sharing with this Committee the results of that rather
than necessarily who said what to whom.[5]
Q63 Mr Winnick: I think all of us understand
that. The Government has rejected a recommendation by the Joint
Committee on Human Rights for a cross-departmental expert task
force on deaths in custody.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Yes.
Q64 Mr Winnick: Would you reflect again
on that position?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Well,
we have reflected and, as I have tried to say, we took very seriously,
and agree with, the recommendation and the kernel of that recommendation
that we have to have a group driving it forward. What we have
looked at is that there are already now three different entities
who are doing that and the question was: do we create a fourth
or do we try and galvanise the work that has already been done
in such a way as to deliver what was actually requested? We have
taken the view that it would be better to make those who are currently
charged with that responsibility actually deliver on it because,
otherwise, you have got, if you like, something coming in between.
I am conscious that what we want is for people to accept responsibility
for it and it is easier to accept that responsibility if the people
around the table are not reporting and exhorting others to do
it, but actually saying, "I will now, on behalf of my Department
[or my group] take the following forward", and do it.
Q65 Mr Browne: Minister, in your introductory
comments you placed high store on what could be achieved with
the new ACCT system.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Yes.
Q66 Mr Browne: I was hoping you could
expand on that and explain what difference it will make, what
timetable you have for rolling it out across the system as a whole,
and then estimates of the cost implications of this whole project.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: As
I hope you are all aware, the ACCT aims to improve the quality
of care by introducing flexible care planning that is prisoner-centred,
supported by improved staff training in assessing and understanding
the risks that prisoners pose. The reason we are confident this
is having a positive impact on the care provided to vulnerable,
at-risk individuals is that already there are some really good
signs of improvement in prisons that are early implementers of
ACCT. Since April 2005 there has been a 5% drop in the rolling
three-year numbers of annual self-inflicted deaths in the first
30 establishments to start using the new system, with the five
ACCT pilots seeing a 10% drop since starting in January 2004,
so we have got real evidence already that it works. Now, it works
because it is seeking to bridge the gap between the crucial inter-relationship
between suicide prevention and mental health provision. For example,
it is linking with reception screening, mental-health awareness
training and mental health inreach, bringing those three things
together and, significantly, implementation is taking place in
close partnership with the National Institute for Mental Health
in England. ACCT, therefore, I think involves a significant commitment
for staff training where all staff in contact with prisoners are
going to be trained in ACCT to foundation level, with specific
training for case managers and selected assessors, and that has
really meant that we have been able to drive forward the figures
in a way that has made a difference.
Q67 Mr Browne: That is interesting because,
although the specific subject that we are addressing today is
suicides in prison, one of the witnesses that we saw prior to
your coming to the room said that more than half of women prisoners
self-harm, and we did not probe what the definition of "self-harm"
was, but nonetheless it is an extraordinary figure. Do you see
evidence with ACCT that it is going to bring in enough of a cultural
change rather than just a few people ticking boxes to say that
they have been on enough training courses to get a certificate,
that it will bring in enough of a cultural change that we will
see a turnaround of all of these various indices within a reasonable
timescale?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I
certainly hope that will be the case. Certainly when I have had
reason to visit a couple of prisons where they have had the training,
one of the things that people said to me which was really exciting
was that having health professionals, prison officers and others
being trained together meant they had a really in-depth understanding
and what was happening was that that understanding was transferring
to how prison officers were dealing with all the prisoners. The
level of sensitivity, the level of care and the level of training
seeped into not just looking after those who are at risk of self-inflicted
death, but also in terms of the general management. That is particularly
important because you will know that many of those who in fact
take their own lives have not given any indication of vulnerability,
so being able to change the culture is very, very important. We
really think this is helping.
Q68 Mr Browne: You are confident, and
again this has been touched on, that the time that it needs to
have to effect this cultural change will not be compromised by
ever-increasing prison numbers, so it will not be that just the
day-to-day processing of the activities within the prison and
making sure that prisoners are supervised will not be so all-consuming
in the more crowded prisons that some of these considerations
will slip backwards?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I
think it means it is taking place in a more challenging environment.
All I can tell you is—
Q69 Mr Browne: So that is a yes?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal:—
in those prisons where it is actually happening, it is making
a difference and in those prisons where it is actually happening,
prison numbers have gone up. What is my reasonable expectation?
My reasonable expectation is that this is a lot better than that
which we had. The training is making a difference, but this is
not a silver bullet and there are lots of other things that we
have to do at the same time and some of the changes that we have
made in the 2003 criminal justice legislation and some of the
ways in which we are now giving sentences with greater options
for community sentencing we hope will in fact mean that only those
who absolutely need to be in prison will be in prison, and that
of itself will obviously mean that we will have more space to
deal with those people.
Q70 Mr Browne: You said it was a more
challenging environment, having more prisoners, but I think there
is a conflict, and I do not particularly blame government ministers
from this particular Government, politicians respond to a public
desire, and you may say it is a misplaced public desire, to see
more people sent to prison and more speeches and other items of
political propaganda will be made to that effect, "We will
be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime and send more
people to prison". At the same time, other parts of the Home
Office are having lots of meetings with the Howard League and
groups of that sort to see how they can address some of the effects,
some of the consequences of the overcrowding that is actually
a direct result of government policy and the whole way government
approaches criminal justice. Do you see a contradiction here,
or not necessarily a contradiction, but a sort of sense that the
right hand and the left hand are not working together?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I
can understand the perception, but I think I need to be very clear
about how we see it. We see that it is absolutely important for
the safety and security of the people of our country, that those
who are dangerous and prolific offenders receive appropriate prison
sentences which will reduce their level of risk that they pose
to the community. However, there are a large number of people
who are currently in prison who do not fall into that category
and for those offenders, through the new Criminal Justice Act
2003 and the much tougher community penalties that are now available,
Community Payback, the fact that we can have a home detention
curfew, the fact that we can make better inroads in terms of the
risk element in reducing drug and alcohol dependency, those issues
which go to the root of the offending pattern of behaviour and
the things that we need to do to reduce recidivism and enhance
our opportunity to resettle people, all of those things are very
much within the heart of what is now available. In the past, as
many of you will know, courts have said that they have not had
a broad enough menu, they have a very restricted number of things
that they can do with offenders to interrupt that pattern of behaviour,
so it is a combination of doing those things and making community
penalties really tough so that they are a real alternative to
prison which will maybe help us drive the numbers down.
Q71 Mr Browne: So you anticipate, as
a consequence of that, that prison numbers will fall and you will
be able to reassure people at the Howard League and other organisations
of that sort that there will be a less challenging environment
in terms of ACCT and other measures of that sort because all of
these proposals which you have just described will see a trend
downwards in the prison population in the year ahead?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Well,
we certainly hope that there will be more appropriate sentencing
which will mean that those who are dangerous will go inside, but
those who can be safely managed in the community will be.
Q72 Mr Browne: Does that mean yes or
no then?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: That
will mean that there should be fewer people in prison if that
is what comes out and we think it will, we think it will.
Q73 Chairman: I do not want to sound
cynical, but I wonder if our earlier witnesses might say that
what you have just said, which I think is very much in line with
what the Howard League and other organisations would like to hear,
is the sort of thing that select committees hear from ministers
when they are talking about prison overcrowding and suicide, but
it is not what we hear from ministers the rest of the time when
they are talking to us, for example, about crime. Is there the
chance for some greater consistency in the message from the Government
over this question of sentencing and the balance between custodial
and non-custodial sentences?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Well,
I hope what I am saying is actually very much in tune with what
Charles Clarke said and has been saying repeatedly. It is very
much in tune with what we said at the Prison Reform Trust speech
which concentrated on community prisons, on resettlement, on reducing
recidivism and on doing those things which are actually pretty
tough about making sure that community penalties are understood
by the public, the public participate in framing them, and that
is what the Community Payback initiative is about, the community
having a say in the sort of community penalties that make sense
so that it will have greater confidence, and it is what we have
done in terms of making sure that we rehabilitate fines which
had fallen into disuse because people did not think they were
going to be responded to. Therefore, I certainly hope that you
will always hear a consistent message from me. I think if you
went through every speech I have ever given, I doubt if you would
find anything inconsistent, but I would be happy to have it highlighted
to me if there were inconsistencies.
Q74 Mr Browne: Maybe in elections we
will have big posters saying, "Vote for us and fewer people
go to prison".
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: "Vote
for us and we will have more effective imprisonment".
Q75 Mr Browne: I have two things to ask
and one of them is about what can be done to reduce suicides among
prisoners in their first days, week, month in prison because that
is the time when the figures show that it is particular prevalent,
and the other is a related point about the greater number of safer
cells which make it harder for prisoners with suicidal intentions
to harm themselves—what has been taken in both of those
regards?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: One
of the things we absolutely understand is that the early period
in prison is the period when people are most vulnerable, so it
is improving our ability to assess, improving the early reception
procedure, making sure that there are better joins in relation
to that, and the stuff I have already talked about in terms of
ACCT. In addition, it is improving and implementing the safer
cells policy. We know that having safer cells which limit the
number of ligature points, et cetera, limits the opportunity that
people have to self-inflict. If I can say just a little bit about
safer cells, from 4 December 2003, the Prison Service Investment
Board confirmed our existing policy. It meant that all Cat A and
B and local prison establishments would be fitted with 100% safer
cells to a full Property Services Group specification, but Cat
C prison establishments would be fitted with 25% safer cells,
and we gave consideration also to include a safer cells provision
in all business case permission of estate planning. What that
means is that to date we have installed 4,200 safer cells. I cannot
give you precise numbers in terms of how many of the 56 prisons
of Category B prisoners have safer cells as we have not done that
audit, but I can tell you what we have done in terms of new safer
cells. The new house-blocks being built in public sector prisons
will contain new safer cells, and the percentage of such cells
will depend on the risk levels of each prison. The cost to put
a safer cell into a new build compared to a normal cell is about
£8,500. It is more expensive than a normal cell. The cost
of converting one existing cell to a safer cell is £31,000
and the cost of converting multiple existing cells is £21,000.
Q76 Chairman: I am sure that this article
is not immediately available, but given the focus on prisoners
newly admitted to prison and remand, is it possible to tell us
now or in writing afterwards what at the moment the chances are
of a new person going into the prison system actually being placed
in a safer cell than a traditional one?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I
certainly have not got the figures here.
Q77 Chairman: Perhaps you can provide
us with those so that we have a measure of how far the programme
has got.[6]
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Yes.
Q78 Gwyn Prosser: Minister, we took evidence
this morning from the NGOs and they were critical frankly about
the failure of the system in communicating medical evidence and
other information about the prisoner from the courts to the prison
and then from prison to prison and they put that quite high on
their priority list for improving matters. There was a notable
case last year when a judge contacted ministers and expressed
his concern about that failure and made various recommendations.
Can you tell us what you have done about that?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: First,
I think everyone will know the issue of transferring information
from one part of the criminal justice system to another has been
an issue for quite a long time. I hope that the Committee is aware
of the work we have done on OASys, which is the assessment process,
which all participants are going to be using. That will now be
available for roll-out across the criminal justice system by the
end of this year. NOMIS, which is the National Offender Management
IT Service, will be available across all estates by the summer
of next year, that is July of 2006, and we hope that the combination
of those two will mean that we will have much better access to
the type of information which will enable people to make better-informed
judgments for keeping people safe. It has been a real issue for
a considerable period. Those areas which have already got the
benefit of OASys are seeing clearly the advantages that that brings
and we know that having access through NOMIS, which is the joined-up
IT process, will allow us to have a quantum leap in information
because it is not simply, though very importantly, families who
are saying this, but if you talk to practitioners across the piece,
they are all saying that they need better-quality and quicker
information to be able to make the informed choices that they
need, and we have made a massive investment on IT throughout the
whole of the criminal justice system where we will be spending
more than £2 billion, I think, overall, but it is coming
now at last.
Q79 Gwyn Prosser: What about the suggestion
by the judge that prisoners should be given a unique number which
would follow them from prison to prison?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Well,
one of the things that may well happen through NOMIS is that the
same data will pass from police to CPS to courts to probation
and then to prisons, so we will have a way now for tracking information
which we simply did not have before. Quite often what would happen
is that there would be valuable information buried in the reports,
but they would not get there at the right time at the right moment.
What NOMIS, we hope, will do is enable all the people in the criminal
justice system who should have access to that information to have
access in real time and that will make a huge difference to our
effectiveness and our level of efficiency, so we are to capture
that information. For instance, if I can give an example, it will
mean that someone who may have been in prison just a month or
two before who will come into our prison estate, in the past we
might not have been able to know unless he or she told us that
was the case, that information, now when the whole system rolls
out, which, as I say, is the summer of next year, we should be
able to have direct access to that information and I think it
will make a big difference to us.
5 See Ev 43 Back
6
See Ev 43 Back
|
