Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-105)
RT HON
BARONESS SCOTLAND
OF ASTHAL
QC, MS CHRISTINE
KNOTT, MR
PHIL WHEATLEY
AND MR
JOHN BOYINGTON
8 NOVEMBER 2005
Q100 Mrs Dean: Is it true that women
are more likely to be sent to prison for a second offence than
men and do you accept that a smaller proportion of women offenders
should be sent to prison and, if so, what is the Government doing
to achieve that?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I
think a similar number of women are being sent. If you look at
the number of women we have in our prison estate at the moment,
there is a huge disparity between the number of men who get sent
to prison and the number of women who get sent to prison. There
are just over 4,500 women in prison at the moment and you know
that our prison population is over 77,000 overall, so if you look
at the percentages, it is actually a relatively small percentage
of women who are going to prison. However, the consequences for
those who do go are stark and I think that is something that we
are looking at very carefully. The increase and change which has
come about by virtue of the new community sentences which have
become available as a result of the Criminal Justice Act 2003
we think will be very helpful because it will, we hope, enable
the court to better target the offending pattern of behaviour
for women in a way that need not necessarily involve a custodial
sentence. I think one of the things we have to be really frank
about though is that many courts almost give up on someone and
there are so many offences, and they are minor offences, but there
are sometimes hundreds of them, so they think, "Well, what
else can we do? We will put this woman in prison". What we
have to find is a better way of addressing those women's offending
patterns of behaviour and interrupting those patterns of behaviour
in a way that will perhaps keep them in the community, lessen
the consequences for their children, lessen the consequences for
themselves and get them back into circulation, but in a way that
actually bites on their offending patterns because the courts
will have no choice, but to send some of these women to prison
even if the actual offences are themselves not huge, but because
of the number of them, and that is a real challenge for us and
we are really concentrating on seeing what we can do about it.
Chairman: We will turn to the last section
now.
Q101 Nick Herbert: Another group where
the incidence of suicide is relatively high is those prisoners
on remand. As you know, there has been a huge increase in the
remand population over the last decade. What steps are you taking
to deal with the problem of suicides in remand prisons?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Really
it is in relation to the attempts we are making for better assessment
when they come in; many prisoners go to first night centres, putting
in programmes which will involve the use of insiders who, as you
know, are prisoners who give information but also they are put
on to the Samaritans who are the listeners, and trying in those
first few days to make sure we have better assessment, better
support and better opportunities to pick those people up very
quickly. Also of course we are hoping that by working with the
courts we will be limiting the number of people who will be coming
to prison on remand. There are greater opportunities now by tagging,
by curfews, by other steps, which will be better able to keep
people secure in the community and monitored as opposed to putting
them into prison. But it is in those early days, making sure we
have better ways of assessing which will make a difference.
Q102 Nick Herbert: On your point about
trying to reduce the remand population and the use of tagging,
I notice in the Home Office's written evidence you said you had
notified the courts of the availability of tagging, but can you
tell us more about what the take-up of that has been specifically
in relation to remand as opposed to early release?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Basically
this is an issue of confidence. You will recall at one stage the
availability of tagging was perceived to be patchy. It was also
seen by many to be very expensive. It is no longer expensive and
it is universally available right the way across the country.
It is making sure that sentencers are aware of that availability,
are aware of the effectiveness of it and can therefore have greater
confidence in using it. The Sentencing Guidelines Council of course
has a real role to play in terms of the advice it gives to judges
in the sort of interventions they should look for, and we are
hoping that they will assist also. We can write to you on the
figures.[8]
Chairman: That would be very helpful.
Q103 Nick Herbert: Can I ask quickly
about bail hostels which are another potential alternative to
remand prisons?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: You
will know the majority of bail hostels we have now are really
identifying the top end of activities, so that we can get the
security and confidence for those who are more difficult to manage
in the community. However, there is an issue as to what further
or other provision we need to make in relation to bail hostels
for those who are not perceived to be dangerous but are in need
of accommodation and monitoring and that is an issue we intend
to continue to look at. For those who have secure accommodation
we now believe that the sort of tools that there are to monitor
them in the community are sufficiently robust and sound to make
prison for many of these offenders no longer a necessity in the
way it was before. Before we had tagging, before we had the combination
of tools, I think it was a more reasonable resort to have prison,
but we think the need for it will and has diminished.
Q104 Chairman: We were told by our earlier
witnesses that one of the recommendations from the Halliday Report
which had not been implemented was the one for the review of that
part of the estate which deals with remand prisoners and bail
hostels and so on. Apparently that has not been implemented. In
view of what you have just said, is there any prospect there will
be a wide ranging review of remand prisoners and bail hostels
and other provision for people pre-sentence or outside of sentencing?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I
do not know whether review means setting up a separate body.
Q105 Chairman: To develop an overall
strategy for the type and location of property, the type who can
be sent there?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: You
will know, I hope, that we hope to launch a five year strategy
in relation to reducing reoffending, and one of the things we
are going to be looking at is the needs across the estate, what
sort of estate we will need to build up, what sort of interventions
will we have, because we do need that needs-based assessment so
we have a real understanding; what is the nature of offenders,
what is their offending pattern of behaviour, what is the level
of interventions they will need, what sort of interventions are
likely to make a difference and then what sort of accommodation
will we need in the community in order to deliver some of those
things. So that review of our overall provision is going on at
the moment.
Chairman: Thank you. This has been a
very helpful session. Thank you very much indeed. I think my own
impression from the chair is that the direction of travel you
have set out is not so far from the areas urged on us by some
of the organisations earlier, but you have also given the Committee
a number of aspirations for the Government which we will want
to come back to in the months and years ahead to see how much
progress is being achieved. Thank you very much indeed.
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