Examination of Witnesses (Questions 540
- 559)
TUESDAY 28 MARCH 2006
MS SARAH
HARLAND, DR
JOANN
MCGREGOR
AND MR
CRISPEN KULINJI
Q540 Mr Benyon: When I say "trivial"
I am not referring to the particular plight of the individual,
just the fact that it is about 300 cases as opposed to the many
thousands that we hear about.
Ms Harland: Every now and again
a different sort of scam or trouble emerges and that is one that
we only know of but we do not know much about it. I cannot help
with that one.
Dr McGregor: There were Press
sources and in fact I saw this because I downloaded a Press source
on this. There was a South African led ring of people who were
operating in the UK doing scams on the ancestral visas and digging
out names of Rhodesians who had died or whatever and issuing Zimbabwean
passports under false identities for them; but they were then
arrested, I think it was last year.
Q541 Mr Benyon: I still have constituents
who are waiting to get their leave to remain.
Ms Harland: Sometimes we have
had occasional cases of people on the ancestral visa, or going
through that route, where they might inadvertently have not complied
with all the regulations, like they may not have been resident
here for four years in succession—they may have been away
in the middle of that—and once we have explained that it
is a bureaucratic matter holding up their case we are hopeful
that it will run smoothly.
Q542 Mr Benyon: Can we move back
to Crispen Kulinji? I think it would be helpful for the record
if you were just to give us a very brief history of how you got
here, the route you came and why you consider yourself to be at
risk going back to Zimbabwe, and really your political history.
Not too long, just a brief summary.
Mr Kulinji: First and foremost
I was the Organising Secretary for my constituents, which is the
coordinator of the Movement for Democratic Change in Harare and
for Zimbabwe. In 2003 we had a mass action against the regime,
which was supported by the Zimbabwean National Army. Because every
security department is headed by Mugabe's relatives, unfortunately
my family was a targeted family and I was abducted I spent about
two days at the base where they keep their guns and their vehicles
and I was tortured. Then the following morning they took me to
Harare International Airport where I was left for dead. Luckily
enough a Good Samaritan managed to take me into hospital and I
stayed in hospital for six months, and after the hospital I went
to stay in a safe house. I stayed there for six months but unfortunately
the safe house was raided by the CIO, but by the time that happened
I had already managed to escape. Before that I was once arrested
in 2000 and my passport was taken away by the police.
Q543 Mr Benyon: So you had no passport?
Mr Kulinji: I had a Zimbabwean
passport.
Q544 Mr Benyon: But it was taken
away, I mean.
Mr Kulinji: It was taken away
by the police because I was released on bail and I had a reporting
condition and my passport was taken away by the police.
Q545 Mr Benyon: Then you went to
Malawi.
Mr Kulinji: I had to go to Malawi
to get a Malawian passport that allowed me to travel to this country,
but I travelled in my own name. Because I was Secretary General
before the division of the parties I had some connections at the
airport, and then I managed to board a plane to this country on
a Malawian passport with my name, and it is a genuine passport.
Q546 Mr Benyon: So what was the argument
of the authorities here as to why it was safe for you to go back?
Mr Kulinji: The authorities are
insisting that I am Malawian because I am a Malawian passport
holder.
Q547 Mr Benyon: If you get sent back
to Malawi the evidence is—not wanting to lead my witness
here—that you will then be sent back to Zimbabwe?
Mr Kulinji: That is automatic,
yes. There is no question about it because we have the case of
the guy who was once deported to Malawi. He did not have any relatives
there, he ended up a vagabond and the last thing was that he was
put into prison and his passport was taken away by the police,
and no one knows what is happening to him.
Q548 Mr Benyon: So in any of your
experiences this neighbouring country route is a very well-established
route of entry for people escaping the tyranny of Mugabe?
Mr Kulinji: At the moment the
president of the Malawi government, his own personal security
is from Zimbabwe. Automatically the airport should also be monitored
by Zimbabweans. As long as the Malawi government is being giving,
and the president, personal security by Mugabe then automatically
they must let them into Malawi. By which I got the passport through
fraudulent means, automatically if I arrived there that passport
would be confiscated like the issue that happened to Elias Kaposa.
Ms Harland: A small number of
Zimbabweans who came with Malawi passports to the UK and who have
been returned to Malawi, the number that we know of have had their
passports taken away on arrival back in Malawi because they are
not entitled to them because they have not got them through the
regular channels or regular processes, and people have either
ended up in prison or they have ended up as vagabonds on the street,
which is a criminal offence in Malawi. One lady was made to give
all the money she had on her to avoid going to prison.
Q549 Mr Benyon: We could continue
down this route but I think we are going a little bit off the
purpose of our inquiry. Following on from the Chairman's earlier
question what we really want to know is how we can stop the elite,
who get their means through ill-gotten gains and through the black
market and through friends in high places, who can swan through
the system, and how we can help legitimate people trying to get
to this country. I am still not clear whether there is a way we
can do this, that we can tighten up either at the High Commission
end, or whether we should improve reception centres in southern
African states bordering Zimbabwe, or whether we should tighten
things up here. I am still looking for clues from you.
Ms Harland: The problem about
the elite is that it is so interwoven. You may have two sons of
a Cabinet Minister and one of them may be a progressive, open-minded
person and the other may be someone who is profiteering from violence
and criminal actions. The other thing about the government elite
is that certainly in the past they have used a wide range of different
names and they are not hampered by the need to be honest about
anything. So how do you keep a track on how many names the child
of a Cabinet Minister is using? There is a substantial amount
of high placed people in the UK, Zimbabwe high placed government
people and their families, but trying to track down the right
names and collect the right information is a very difficult task.
At the same time you do not want to stop the elite who travel
around the world letting people know what is happening in Zimbabwe—the
trade unionists, academics, businessmen, et cetera. It is a problem,
yes.
Q550 Mr Benyon: We could of course
expand the stop list, the list which seems to me to be restricted
to about 30 people when I last looked at it. In my mind it should
be probably ten times that size, but it requires a lot of intelligence
work. I do not know if you have any comment?
Mr Kulinji: I have a question
on that. Let us suppose the British government says that they
are going to take 500 asylum seekers, and here comes Crispen Kulinji,
a genuine case, after this number of this number of 500, what
happens to that person? And the issue of somebody with a passport
without a visa, obviously that passport was being abused by other
foreign countries. Then giving Croatia a free visa. If someone
comes on a Croatian passport does this qualify him to be a person
from Croatia? And on his voluntary return we have a chap, Feka,
who volunteered to go back to Zimbabwe on a Malawian passport.
There was no appeal about it, he was sent direct to Zimbabwe.
After, his case was refused because they believe that he was a
Malawi. So why send him to Zimbabwe? Is it that he volunteered
to go there?
Chairman: I think we had better move
on. Colin Burgon.
Q551 Colin Burgon: Ms Harland, we
recognise that very many Zimbabweans are living here in the UK
illegally, but would you say from your knowledge that it is easy
for the Zimbabweans to live illegally in the UK? And, if they
do, do they support themselves mainly through illegal working
or in other ways?
Ms Harland: There are a large
number of Zimbabweans in the UK who are forced into supporting
themselves through working illegally, either because they came
as visitors once and overstayed or because they are end of process
asylum seekers. They have the option; many of them know that if
they return to Zimbabwe they are going to face severe persecution,
harassment, et cetera, and they feel that they have no option
but to stay here. There are many who do not want to go down the
road of prostitution, theft, et cetera, and find it a far better
way to work, even if that is illegal; they find it the lesser
of the two evils. Because they are working illegally they are
also being exploited by a wide range of employers who will work
them around the clock for the minimal level, and that is what
is happening in such a large way here; because of the situation
people are being exploited. There are some very capable and able
people; there are teachers, medical staff—a whole range—engineers
and every range of job. Those people could be doing something
useful with their time; they could be putting more back into this
country. They could be paying larger taxes; they could be doing
something here. Most of them are only here on a temporary basis
and if it were stable at home they would be gone.
Q552 Colin Burgon: Dr McGregor, running
on from this, the report you have done is on Zimbabweans working
in a care sector. You suggest that employers or agencies in the
care sector employ illegal Zimbabweans rather than legitimate
EU citizens, primarily because the Zimbabweans have a better command
of English. Is that the main reason? Are there any other reasons?
What is the role of actual agencies run by Zimbabweans themselves
for procuring people for that kind of work in the care sector?
Dr McGregor: I should start off
by saying that there are huge shortages of carers in the UK, both
in skilled and unskilled.
Q553 Colin Burgon: You made that
point in your report, yes.
Dr McGregor: Zimbabweans and other
African groups, Philippinos also, and quite a lot of recent arrivals
from the Caribbean also have quite a long history now of filling
jobs at the kind of bottom end of the market, these temporary
labour jobs, and they were established in the care sector people
before the recent wave of migrants from the Accession States.
I think that language has been a problem in terms of people coming
from Lithuania or Latvia or wherever taking up jobs in the care
sector because communication is so important, and that has been
a real problem for home managers and for employers within the
care sector. Also, for historical reasons African groups are now
quite well established as carers in the UK alongside other groups.
They are not all illegal, there are many Zimbabweans working very
legitimately in the care sector. A lot of students are working
there for 20 hours to support their studies by taking jobs in
old people's homes and so on.
Q554 Colin Burgon: So the reasons
then that care sector employers would prefer to employ legal Zimbabweans
rather than EU nationals, you think it is far more complex than
just the fact that they have command of English?
Dr McGregor: Language and also
they are familiar with Zimbabweans and other southern Africans
now. They have the reputation of being very hard working. I interviewed
a number of people running care agencies and they said that they
would actively choose Zimbabweans because they have a reputation
for never cancelling a shift, and they are very hardworking. So
there are positive elements to the kind of stereotyping that reinforces
their role in this area.
Q555 Colin Burgon: I am one of those
who does not go along with this wonderful theory of what we call
flexible labour markets because I am aware of how they actually
work on ordinary working people. So what would you say the impacts
of this large number of Zimbabweans working illegally in the care
sector, both in terms of general employment conditions and then,
quite separate from that, in terms of the quality of the care
to the elderly themselves? Two separate issues there.
Dr McGregor: I think the key problem
is that the situation at the moment is favouring the unscrupulous
employers who are prepared to have their bands of temporary labourers
who are prepared to work here and who are getting less than the
minimum wage, and often they are getting a pittance. Because you
have these cascading sub-contracting chains it is very difficult
to say who the employer is—there is a blurring of boundaries
there—and so the remuneration is often not getting down
to the people who are doing the job of caring, it is being taken
by these intermediary agencies. So the current system is favouring
the unscrupulous employers over the scrupulous employers, and
I think that is very detrimental.
Q556 Colin Burgon: Just one final
point, your report does mention that groups of Zimbabweans are
actually setting themselves up as agencies. Generally speaking,
from your knowledge, are they good agencies, bad agencies or just
reflect what domestic agencies are like?
Dr McGregor: I think they pretty
much reflect domestic agencies. There is a whole span from very
legitimate employers to dodgy gang masters, basically. I would
not see any difference in that. A lot of the people who set up
care agencies have a history of working as social workers or in
the NHS because they had the contacts with local authorities when
they were privatising, and obviously the Zimbabweans who were
skilled and had a history of work in local authorities were well
placed to set up agencies like that. A lot of them are very legitimate;
they have received small grants from the government to help them
set up in businesses. I would not want to over emphasise Zimbabweans.
My own interest is that I have a long history of engagement with
Zimbabwe, which is why I was looking at Zimbabweans, but there
are many other different African groups and different sorts of
migrant groups.
Chairman: Thank you. Richard Spring.
Q557 Mr Spring: Dr McGregor, just
to continue, you are absolutely right to say that there is a shortage
of carers in this country and with the increased emphasis on care
in the community I daresay that that situation will only become
more difficult. I wondered how you think this matter could be
regularised because, given that so much of the caring professions
are now dependent on Zimbabweans—if it is correct to make
that judgment—how could the situation be regularised in
a way that those who are legally here, who are in this kind of
employment can stay on a basis that would involve legality rather
than illegality, without actually having the effect of drawing
more Zimbabweans illegally into this country, both to their disadvantage
and with all the problems that we are looking at?
Dr McGregor: I suppose there are
two ways to go. Either you could have some kind of amnesty for
Zimbabweans, particularly failed asylum seekers who were granted
the right to stay in this country but they do not have the right
to work; that puts them in a very insidious situation and of course
they are going to be forced into situations where they will be
exploited and paid a small minimal wage, resulting in bonded labour
type set-ups. So an amnesty is one route. I know that the Commission
for Social Care Inspectorate is interested in setting up a route
to fill both unskilled and skilled gaps within the care sector.
What is obviously important is that it should not marginalize
the people who are already doing the job and who have built up
the skills. So it would need to mop up the people who are already
in this country, who are trapped in this country because they
cannot go back to places like Zimbabwe, as well as obviously bringing
in more people from outside if that were necessary. The current
situation is very damaging; the human rights of the people who
are working to look after elderly people are being abused. They
have to work double shifts; their pay is being withheld by unscrupulous
employers. It is bad for legitimate employers in this sector who
are trying to pay decent wages and they are trying to institute
training systems and so on. It is undermining the whole regulatory
structure, the NVQ systems, health and safety standards and so
on. And it is bad for the old people. I was talking with somebody
within the social care CSCI earlier this morning and they are
very concerned. The Home Office has been raiding care homes particularly
over the last year, and they are very concerned with the effects
of that. Are homes suddenly going to lose all of their staff like
that? It creates immense instability for employers within the
care sector. It is very bad for the well being of the residents
of those homes which are trying to create an atmosphere of stability
and security. So they are very concerned that the Home Office
raids should not exacerbate the problems that they are trying
to resolve in terms of creating a more stable and regular labour
force.
Q558 Mr Spring: Given that we all
do not want to see a situation of Zimbabweans being here illegally
the next question is really this: is it possible to have a scheme
whereby individuals would come here to fulfil certain roles, at
least on a temporary basis? I think the inference of what you
are saying is that probably for powerful economic reasons this
is not likely to happen. You have the Commonwealth scheme, for
example, whereby young people can come here and they are required
to go back unless they give specific reasons of job opportunities.
Is there some basis for that to try to bridge this problem of
legality and illegality?
Dr McGregor: I think a temporary
permit scheme would be one way to go, as long as it was open to
people who are staying in this country and cannot go back, so
that there is a route then for them to regularise their status;
they are doing the job anyway. And we are brought back again to
the conditions in a country like Zimbabwe and any kind of temporary
permit system would have to take those conditions into account
because people cannot go back to Zimbabwe at the moment even on
a temporary permit. I interviewed lots of people who are working
as care workers who are eligible for work permits—doctors,
engineers, university lecturers—but they cannot go back
and come in through official routes, they would qualify under
the points system. They simply cannot; they are trapped here.
Ms Harland: This is one of the
desperate things about the situation, the fact that there are
people who could be in a different category but they are now here,
they are stranded, whether it is trying to get into a different
work permit category or for things like spousal visas—they
cannot return to Harare to apply for a spousal visa, so they are
just stranded in this sort of no man's land.
Q559 Mr Spring: The difficulty is,
however, that as much as one feels for Zimbabweans—and certainly
that feeling is very powerful—there are many other countries
which simply refuse and decline on the same basis to take people
back and that presents a broad picture problem for the British
Government. Ms Harland, you are probably the right person to answer
this questions, in terms of clearly indicating to the existing
Zimbabwean community in this country what their rights are and
how they can challenge whatever is put before them, are there
sufficient structures or flows of information within the Zimbabwean
community living in this country to effectively to be able to
do that, to give advice?
Ms Harland: Within the last year
there has been a huge improvement by the establishment of a newspaper
called The Zimbabwean and that has been spreading out throughout
the UK, but it is extraordinary how even now we will come across
pockets of Zimbabweans who have been in remoter areas and they
have no real understanding of many of the dominant groups that
are operating in things like asylum and other fields. The Home
Office sometimes takes the view that if people do not know about
something it is not credible, that they should, but we are always
coming across people who are ignorant of things. I just want to
briefly mention that a lot of the asylum seekers who are in the
process now and are referred to as failed asylum seekers, they
may be people who arrived here in 2001 and who were preyed on
by a number of unscrupulous legal representatives who have since
come to the attention of the legal authorities in this country,
and served prison sentences. But all those cases, all those people
who went through those hands, their cases were dismissed out of
hand and those people had legitimate cases.
Chairman: Many other Members may want
to ask supplementary questions but unfortunately because of the
fire drill and everything else we are running nearly half an hour
late so I am going to have to draw your session to a close, but
could I thank you very much indeed for coming this morning; it
has been enormously informative and you have given us a very human
side to the inquiry with which we are dealing. It is little comfort
to say it but the whole Committee does hope for the day in which
some of the underlying problems that are driving migration will
be resolved and we return to normal relations with Zimbabwe and
its people. Thank you very much indeed for coming today.
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