Examination of Witnesses (Questions 689
- 699)
TUESDAY 9 MAY 2006
MR MARK
RIMMER, MR
DEREK BEOKU-BETTS
AND MS
PRAGNA PATEL
Mr Winnick: Good morning. Thank you very
much for coming along to our inquiry into immigration control
and the aspect of marriages. We had a brief private session beforehand
and that is the reason you were kept waiting. We have a number
of questions to you and I am going to ask Richard Spring to start.
Q689 Mr Spring: Thank you, Chairman.
I wanted to ask questions of Mr Rimmer. I have read your submission
and we would just like to, obviously, deal with this question
of foreigners marrying British nationals. I think the statistic
you quoted in your written statement was that between 2001 and
2005 approximately 20% of all marriages in Brent were entered
into for the purpose of improving immigration status. Then you
mentioned a drop of 50% overall in the number of marriages taking
place since the new rules were put in place. Does this mean that
in addition to placing obstacles in the way of so-called "sham"
marriages the new provision is also having an effect on bona fide
marriages?
Mr Rimmer: I think it is fair
to say it is difficult to say. The 20% estimate is, of course,
only an estimate because bogus marriage, of course, is a criminal
activity, so it is very difficult to get objective evidence of
its formation and the 20% was always an estimate, and perhaps
a conservative estimate. However, I have never estimated that
50% were bogus, and what we may have lost, I think—and I
will certainly give you an example—is if you had two South
African students here on student visas, they may think that applying
for a certificate of approval at a cost of £135 for each
of them to enable them to be married in the UK, they would probably
choose to go back home and get married. So I suspect we have lost
a lot of those. So, effectively, those will be quite legitimate
marriages, and we undoubtedly have lost some of those. Certainly
we have also lost a considerable number of those that were bogus
as well.
Q690 Mr Spring: If I can ask another
question of you, which is about the evidence that the number of
people applying to come to the UK as dependents of EEA nationals
is rising in some countries. For example, in Ghana, there were
51 applications as the spouse of an EEA national in January to
March 2006 compared with nine in the same period last year. Do
you think the new marriage rule is simply displacing the problem?
Mr Rimmer: I am really not in
a position to deal with that.
Mr Beoku-Betts: I am sorry. Can
you repeat the question, please?
Q691 Mr Spring: We are just talking
about the applications in Ghana as a spouse of an EEA national,
in January to March 2006 there were 51 applications compared with
nine in the same period last year. So would you think that the
new marriage rules have simply displaced the problem?
Mr Beoku-Betts: In a sense, yes,
if indeed there is a problem. I think one of the arguments that
we have put forward is that the actual scale of this abuse has
never been clearly evidenced. We do from time to time get high
profile stories in the media saying that there is an abuse of
this system; however, we do not see actual figures. Furthermore,
when—
Q692 Mr Winnick: Can I just interrupt
you there? You say you do not see actual figures. Surely, you
are aware of Mr Rimmer's evidence which has been well-publicised
about what he considered to be sham marriages?
Mr Beoku-Betts: Yes. He also said
that sham marriages would be subject to criminal sort of proceedings
in certain circumstances, and one would have expected that if
he had had this very large number of people entering into sham
marriages there would be a correspondingly high number of prosecutions,
and that is not something that we have seen.
Q693 Mr Spring: So you draw the inference
that because there have not been prosecutions there has not been
an increase. Is that what you are saying?
Mr Beoku-Betts: What I am saying
is that if the scale is as high as has been reported then you
would see quite a few prosecutions.
Q694 Mr Spring: I know Mr Rimmer
has given us certain statistics but I think you said there was
no assurance that these were accurate so we actually have no way
of measuring this situation, do we? That is the problem. I think
you have just both alluded to it in different ways. There is no
basis of rational objective measurement.
Mr Beoku-Betts: In a sense I must
concede it is very difficult to measure, but at the same time
one does not get a sense that the scale is as high as is made
out by the authorities.
Mr Spring: Well, it is very difficult
for us. Obviously, we have to come to certain conclusions, and
of course we do have tabloid stories and we have had suggestions
of certain levels of this kind of thing, but it is very, very
difficult—I think we can all agree—that as we have
no evidence we do not know exactly the extent of the problem,
but there we are. Thank you, Chairman.
Q695 Mr Winnick: Mr Beoku-Betts,
do you think Mr Rimmer, as a public servant, has some ulterior
motive in publicising what he has done about sham marriages?
Mr Beoku-Betts: No, absolutely
not, but obviously he does have his suspicions.
Q696 Mr Winnick: Surely, as a public
servant, considering the role that he plays as the Superintendent
Registrar of the London Borough of Brent, he has a responsibility,
has he not, to have suspicions?
Mr Beoku-Betts: Indeed, but, at
the same time, we all have our own experiences. I have experiences
as an immigration lawyer having practised in this area of law
for well over 15 years—probably closer to 20—
Q697 Mr Winnick: Now representing
JCWI.
Mr Beoku-Betts: Yes, I am a solicitor
and I am the casework director of JCWI. My experience is not that
we have these very, very high levels of people wanting to enter
into bogus marriages. On the contrary, what we see is people who
are in genuine and subsisting relationships wanting to formalise
their relationship in terms of a legal marriage.
Q698 Mr Winnick: We have questions
for you later, Ms Patel, unless you are desperate to come in on
this.
Ms Patel: No, I am not. It is
not my area.
Q699 Mr Winnick: Mr Rimmer, you started
being concerned some years ago in your position as Superintendent
Registrar at the London Borough of Brent. Is that right?
Mr Rimmer: Absolutely. I have
to say that it is not only in my position as Superintendent Registrar
for Brent and Director of the service in Brent; I am also part
of a local government co-ordinating body called LACORS under
the Local Government Association, and my remit is effectively
as a spokesperson for local government both on citizenship and
nationality but, also, on the sham marriages issue. So it is also
intelligence-based evidence from other areas of the country as
well as Brent; it is not just based upon my experience in Brent,
it is right around the country. Also, just to correct the gentleman
here, it is not only foreign nationals or those subjected to immigration
control marrying British nationals. In fact, most of the abuse
that we found was foreign nationals marrying EEA nationals other
than British nationals, so effectively it was not Brits at all;
it was primarily the French, Portuguese and Dutch who were involved
in the scam.
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