Examination of Witnesses (Questions 346-359)
MR SIMON
THOMAS, SIR
PETER FRY
AND MR
JOHN CARPENTER
17 NOVEMBER 2005
Q346 Chairman: Good morning, gentlemen.
Thank you very much indeed for joining us here this morning. I
wonder if I could ask you to introduce yourselves for the record.
Mr Thomas: Good morning. My name
is Simon Thomas, and I am the Managing Director of Thomas Holdings
Ltd and represent gaming operators from across the current leisure
market, including bingo halls, adult gaming centres, et cetera.
Sir Peter Fry: My name is Peter
Fry. I am the Chairman of the Bingo Association. Unlike Mr Thomas,
who only very small number of the people he represents are bingo
operators, I think there are two others besides himself, we are
the official voice of the Bingo Association. I do not think we
are going to disagree, but I think we should put that on record
to start with.
Mr Carpenter: John Carpenter,
I am an owner/operator of small bingo club in Oxfordshire and
I am a member of the Bingo Association.
Q347 Dr Taylor: Can I go first to
Mr Thomas, because obviously, as you have said, you only have
a small number of bingo halls, so your main interests are really
in betting offices, gaming centres, seaside arcades and machine-manufacturing
companies. So you have got a wide range of interests?
Mr Thomas: It is not actually
entirely true. For example, I have the largest bingo hall in the
country, so I am very bingo focused as well. The group I represent
has an interest in all of those areas.
Q348 Dr Taylor: In your submission
to the Government, I think this was, you proposed that steps taken
to improve the health of employees in all types of leisure establishment
should apply equally, regardless of the type of establishment.
That is your firm belief?
Mr Thomas: Absolutely. The health
of the employees is paramount, and our view is unless there is
a complete ban it will lead to complete migration of our customers
into environments where they can smoke. We find the idea of a
partial ban mystifying. A lot of our customers already go to working
men's clubs, et cetera, and, given the choice of coming into a
bingo hall or an adult gaming centre and playing the slot-machines,
drinking, eating, playing bingo and smoking, or doing more or
less the same in one of the 19,000 registered clubs across the
country, the customers are going to migrate.
Q349 Dr Taylor: What about betting
offices? I have seen people stay in those for quite some length
of time?
Mr Thomas: Betting offices are
a slightly more specialised product. People will put a bet on,
go outside and smoke. It is not really a sessional product, like
bingo halls and adult gaming centres, where people spend prolonged
periods of time.
Q350 Dr Taylor: Is it true that in
some casinos cigarettes are provided free?
Mr Thomas: I am not in the casino
business currently, but I believe it is the case, yes.
Q351 Dr Taylor: You also, I think,
would be in favour—and you have heard some of the other
witnesses in the previous session—of the legislation being
brought in rather more slowly?
Mr Thomas: Yes. For example, in
bingo halls, 30% of the floor area is non-smoking. Clearly that
is an improvement, but it is not a solution, and, regardless of
all the ventilation we put in, and like publicans we have put
a lot of money into it, the smoke transfers across, the customers
go between them. We can hardly have customers wandering around
in nuclear biological and chemical suits to protect them or going
into these smoking carriages to clean them in yellow suits. It
does not work. It has to be complete.
Q352 Dr Taylor: So smoke-free areas
do not work. Coming to the Bingo Association, I very much liked
the last sentence of your submission to us which was, "The
proposals contained in the Choosing Health White Paper are a confused
mixture of policies, attempting to keep all sectors on board and
reflecting a vague notion of public opinion but in practice discriminating
against some premises in favour of others", and, of course,
as you end up, "The proposals will produce a law applying
differently in England to the rest of the United Kingdom."
You feel it is all fairly ridiculous?
Sir Peter Fry: We actually take
the view that we are more confused with the publication of the
Bill, because, under the exemptions, which are not clearly delineated,
you could read into the exemption for premises under the 2003
Licensing Act that that could include bingo halls. That rather
threw us because we thought entirely in terms of a total or partial
ban. We never thought that some bingo halls could be included.
We still, I think, would say very strongly that a full ban is
necessary, but what we would also say is that any help for the
smaller clubs—and I would like Mr Carpenter to talk a little
bit about this—any help we can give to the smaller clubs
who are the most at risk, who perhaps provide the greatest social
content for the customers, if there were exemptions, obviously
we would like them to take a chance on using them, but my information
from the Department of Health is that it is very unlikely. So,
with that caveat, quite clearly we are in favour of a total ban,
not just because it is going to affect our industry, our industry's
profits, but because of the effect upon our customer. A partial
ban could cause the closure of about 150 clubs all over the country,
according to a report we have had from the Henley Centre. A full
ban would lead to the closure of something like 90 clubs. If we
have to choose between partial disaster and total disaster, quite
clearly we believe that the health interests that would require
a total ban are also in the best interests of our customers.
Q353 Dr Taylor: So full ban 150.
Was it 95 you said for . . .
Sir Peter Fry: A full ban would
be less than a partial ban.
Q354 Dr Taylor: You have also told
us that really nearly 50% of your players are smokers, and a lot
of them are elderly ladies as well. Can you see any way of attracting
that same sort of clientele to a bingo hall where there is no
smoking? Can you see ways of making it attractive to them?
Sir Peter Fry: We have done various
surveys ourselves, and one that we commissioned independently.
We, of course, admit that there will be some people who will go
to a bingo club who do not go now because the atmosphere is clearer,
but, on balance, there will be a considerable net outflow, and
that, as I say, will endanger a lot of clubs. I think it is perhaps
a point that is not understood widely. When a bingo club closes
we have discovered that about 50% of customers do not transfer
to another Bingo club; they just stop going; and that is why we
do believe that if many of our customers, such as the category
you have mentioned, lose that opportunity, that will be social
harm to them and why should they not continue to enjoy what they
like to do, to go and have their little flutter and a good night
out? I hope that has answered your question.
Q355 Dr Taylor: Yes, I think many
of us concerned about constituents think of elderly ladies living
alone for whom this may be their only outing?
Sir Peter Fry: Indeed.
Q356 Dr Taylor: Mr Carpenter, did
you want to come in from the point of view of the smaller clubs?
Mr Carpenter: As Sir Peter was
saying about possible exemptions for smaller clubs, I make it
clear now that I want to go no smoking. I would like my club to
be no smoking and I would do it tomorrow but for the fact it would
be financial suicide. I would have 36% displacement of customers
who would leave and go and play bingo where they can smoke. Having
said that, I think we have got a great opportunity here. I think
if there is a total ban our club will survive. It will take a
loss of profits for two or three years, yes, obviously, but there
is light at the end of the tunnel; we will survive. So I am asking
and I am saying that I think we should have a total ban. Let's
do it and get it over and done with. My customers feel the same.
Three or four years ago if I had spoken to them and said, "We
are thinking about banning smoking," they would have been
up in arms, "The Government can't do that", but their
mindset has changed. They are now thinking it is going to happen.
"I cannot smoke at work, I cannot smoke on the train or bus.
Lets do it and hopefully I will give up smoking." That is
what they are saying. They are saying let's do it.
Q357 Dr Taylor: Do you think some
of your little old ladies are keener on bingo than on smoking?
Mr Carpenter: I think a lot of
them are keener on bingo.
Q358 Dr Taylor: So they might continue
to come?
Mr Carpenter: But if they had
a choice and if they can go somewhere and do both they will go
there and do both.
Q359 Dr Taylor: Of course.
Sir Peter Fry: Just a point stressed
by your last interviewees that a gradual introduction time in
necessary in order to readjust, particularly for the smaller businesses
because they are the ones that are at the greatest risk of going
under early. I think we all appreciate in time the public will
accept smoking bans everywhere in the way they do when they go
to a theatre or when they go to a cinema, but there will a time
gap, there will be a period in which you are going to lose people,
so what we are hoping is we know where we are clearly from the
word go, that we do get reasonable notice of when the ban is coming
in, and then people like John Carpenter can organise their businesses
and keep their little old ladies coming into bingo.
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