Examination of Witnesses (Questions 520-530)
MR SHAUN
WOODWARD MP, MS
PAT OSBORNE
AND MR
JIM GIBSON
24 NOVEMBER 2005
Q520 Dr Naysmith: But
that is fairly serious, is it not?
Mr Woodward: There are all sorts
of things . . .
Q521 Dr Naysmith: Medical
advice which tells you the practice is killing people?
Mr Woodward: I think I can see
where you are going on this now. There are lots of things that
people do to themselves that arguably are harmful, but the state
does not stop them from doing it. What we were concerned to do
was to stop them from harming people in the workplace and in public
places so we would not be a nanny state saying you cannot smoke,
but what we would do would be to protect the health of those people
who do not smoke and would be forced to breathe in the smoke of
those who do, and we thought that in public places and in work
places it was right to do that, but we would not have felt we
could go that far if the public had not supported us.
Q522 Dr Naysmith: That
is your opinion, but we are getting to the stage now where we
know that the Chief Medical Officer for England and Wales recommended
a total ban, the Medical Officer from Northern Ireland recommended
a total ban; I am quite sure it is a total ban from the medical
people in Scotland as well. How high does the opinion of medical
. . .
Mr Woodward: You have to form
a judgment about this. There are plenty of people who think that
having more than two units a day of alcohol is really bad for
you, but we are not legislating to stop people having more that
than two units of alcohol.
Q523 Dr Naysmith: You
are not drinking other people's alcohol. With smoke you are taking
in other people's smoke.
Mr Woodward: Yes, but, as I say,
these things are about judgment, and our judgment was that the
time was right to do this in Northern Ireland. The evidence undoubtedly
for us was compelling, but, as I say, I think you do have to have
huge and widespread public support behind this and in Northern
Ireland, not least because of the introduction in the Republic
a year before, we were ready to do it.
Q524 Mike Penning: You
have gone on several times saying that you have to take the public
with you; public opinion has to be with you. We have heard a lot
of evidence at this committee that public opinion is there to
protect my workers in my constituency and yours, but we are not
going to get the protection that you are offering as a minister.
Is it not the case that it is nothing to do with public opinion,
it is to do with the cabinet's opinion and whether or not you
can get this through the cabinet for a total ban rather than this
flat situation?
Mr Woodward: No.
Q525 Mike Penning: Would
you explain then: because the Secretary of State sat there and
wanted a total ban. It was clear in everything she said. You said
the compelling evidence is that we could save lives if we introduce
this. It went to the Cabinet and it was thrown out. Why?
Mr Woodward: I am afraid I do
not sit in the cabinet and I cannot therefore discuss thing that
I genuinely have no knowledge of.
Q526 Mike Penning: How
can you defend it then if you were not there?
Mr Woodward: Sorry.
Q527 Mike Penning: How
can you defend a decision of the Cabinet if you were not there?
Mr Woodward: I can defend the
decision that we have made in Northern Ireland because I have
responsibility for health in Northern Ireland. I do not have responsibility
for health outside of Northern Ireland, and I do believe in devolution
and I do . . .
Q528 Mike Penning: You
have a responsibility to your constituents, like I do. You protected
Belfast South and you are not going to protect St Helens South?
Mr Woodward: As I have just said,
you can only do this if the public are behind you, and in Northern
Ireland they are behind this decision. If health ministers here
judge that the public is not yet ready for this, that is a judgment
that they must make, and I am afraid, as much as you may want
to speculate on what did or did not take place in the cabinet,
I am unable to assist you because I was not there.
Mike Penning: We can read it in the papers.
It is quite easy.
Q529 Chairman: Can I ask
you one last question. When we went to the Irish Republic, and
I assume that you saw the same statistics, indeed I think you
used them in your statement on 17 October, that smoking prevalence
had reduced in Northern Ireland after the ban had taken place—it
was one in three; it is now down to one in four—the potential
for smoking cessation coming on the back of such a ban, was it
an issue in your thinking in terms of Northern Ireland or was
it an issue in terms of both the campaigning and the public's
thinking in Northern Ireland about whether or not to have a comprehensive
ban?
Mr Woodward: I might add a second
component to that. Picking up from what Jim said earlier on and
his kind comments about congratulating me on giving up since I
smoked so much, it was my experience of going to New York and
whenever I went to New York being in a place, whether it was three
days, five days, a week, or whatever, it was impossible to smoke,
and to start with you joined the queues with everybody else standing
outside an office building puffing away on a cigarette, but eventually
I got bored with doing it and eventually I got bored with being
in people's houses and flats and it clearly was an imposition
to ask whether or not you could light up, so you would have dinner
with someone and actually go out on the porch to have a cigarette.
That influenced me a, lot and it was the same experience told
to me again and again in Dublin, and it made me realise that actually
it is a very effective way of encouraging people to give up, because
you make it really inconvenient; and one of the reasons that we
intend to introduce the comprehensive controls of where people
smoke in April is that one of the best pieces of advice I think
we were given was: do this at a time of year when people can have
a few months of doing it on the porch outside when it is not sleet
and snow and rain because actually they will be with you again.
It will help build public opinion and put it on your side and,
undoubtedly, you will find after six months that fewer people
will be smoking. That was my personal experience. It led to me
giving up. It has been the experience in New York, it is undoubtedly
the experience in Dublin and I am pretty confident that within
a year of us introducing these comprehensive controls in April
2007 we will see a significant decline in the number of people
smoking.
Q530 Chairman: Minister,
could I thank you very much for coming along and for giving evidence
this morning. I am sure that is going to be very helpful to the
Committee in its inquiry.
Mr Woodward: Thank you very much.
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