Select Committee on International Development Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280 - 299)

THURSDAY 8 JUNE 2006

RT HON HILARY BENN MP, MR JIM DRUMMOND AND MR PHIL EVANS

  Q280  Ann McKechin: Do you now think we have the right tools to provide that degree of development assistance and that degree of support given that we are now the largest bilateral donor?

  Hilary Benn: I think we have got a very good team who, by coincidence I was having discussion with this morning about what are the priorities now for our programme in the DRC. I do think, however, we are about to enter a really difficult period, as you will have seen and heard on your visit, because the elections are very important. With them will come this enormous expectation on the part of the people that after they have voted life will begin to change, and yet the electoral process itself will mean that it could be two, three, four months before we know exactly what the shape of the new government is going to be, and we are all going to have to work very hard to make sure that problems do not occur in that vacuum.

  Q281  John Barrett: Can I expand on the issue of conflict prevention. We have taken evidence about the cost of conflicts and the savings that could be made if those same conflicts could be prevented, and a lot of the discussion is hypothetical because we never know the cost of the conflict until it takes place, but how effective do you think DFID's conflict prevention work has been. Are they not able to quantify the success and say where they believe they have been successful and, if so, exactly which sort of tools in the conflict prevention tool-kit are working best?

  Hilary Benn: My answer, I suppose, would depend on what stages of the conflict process you were talking about. In the case of Sierra Leone, for example, it depends whether you count the military intervention in the first place that was the foundation for all that has been achieved subsequently. That is nothing to do with DFID, that is down to colleagues in the MoD. In my view, absolutely the right thing to have done, but that was not really conflict prevention. It was the prevention of yet further conflict, but it was about trying to bring to an end the activities of the RUF[8] and the Westside Boys who were causing so much havoc in the country. I think what we have done, working very closely with FCO and MoD subsequently, if you look at Sierra Leone now, has meant that the chances of conflict recurring are less. In that sense it has been successful to date in preventing further conflict and there is some growth and stability in the country currently, but it is a fragile process there, as it is everywhere else. I do think our experience teaches us that it is about trying to understand what exactly is going on in the country, doing things in the right order and, if that means for DFID, as I indicated in answer to the earlier question, doing things that some people might not at first consideration think was development, we need to explain very clearly why that is the right thing to do because otherwise you are never going to get to the subsequent stage. Each conflict is different. We have to learn the lessons, we have to do the right things in the right circumstances, but I think, both in relation to the DRC and Sierra Leone, since we are focusing on them in particular, we have broadened our horizon.


  Q282  John Barrett: When it is seen post-conflict the amount of human and financial resources that must pour into a country, is there therefore a pressure on DFID now to say, "We must increase these resources to try and avoid potential conflicts coming down the track"?

  Hilary Benn: I suppose in a sense— Well, with the DRC, we started from a very low base, but that is exactly what we have been doing. Another example I give is the one I referred to in relation to Rwanda when they announced they were thinking of wandering back over the border. I think that was a use of influence and encouragement that we had to say that would not really be a very good idea in the circumstances and, in the end, Rwanda did not do that, but actually they got the same messages from lots of people in the international community. I would point to that too. Having started make to effort, it would really not be very sensible to then, for want of commitment and money resources, to allow a country to slip back. It is a challenging in Afghanistan too, where I spent Sunday and Monday of this week.

  Chairman: Just to clarify, colleagues, we have jumped ahead and I am coming back again. I am going to ask John Battle to come in with a question on DFID's capacity.

  Q283  John Battle: I think it is probably a question for your colleagues from the Department, in a way. It is about the resources of DFID. As you rightly say, if things go wrong in DRC, then there are problems in the whole region. I know you have gone up from three to 33. If I am right the staff is the same number as in Kenya, but it is actually lower than in Rwanda, and the post for the DRC when we were there, it is not a senior civil servant's post that is heading up DFID, but it is in Kenya. How do you adapt, if there is a real priority in the DRC, to make sure the staffing is up to that? The other thing is, I am reminded of other situations. East Timor in which DFID and the Foreign Office, in my own former life, made a great effort to stop the violence with a separation of the country, and the establishment of a new country. The UN has now withdrawn to some extent, as have DFID and other aid agencies, however it is still an incredibly poor country and the violence has kicked off again. I tend to share the view that in difficult conflict and post-conflict fragile states, we need the best, the brightest, most experienced and capable people, not the starters, to be there to manage that situation for the longer term. I think other colleagues have mentioned in the past Sri Lanka, for example, the tsunami. The conflict subsided during that crisis but now is kicking off again. What can you do to ensure that your staffing adjustments move fast enough to say the best are in the most difficult positions and that they are at the appropriate rank and capability?

  Hilary Benn: I think you are absolutely right about that. That is an issue which we are grappling with currently, and I think you will see some of that reflected in the White Paper when it comes out. The truth is that those are indeed the countries where you need more of your human resource, more of your people to work, and in a sense the countries that are kind of getting on okay, could we do with fewer staff there, recognising we have got headcount targets that we have to meet, like all government departments? Can we reduce the numbers there in order to provide the space to put the human capacity into those countries? You raise a very interesting point about the grades at which offices are headed, which, in fact, we are currently looking at as we speak. The second example you gave of East Timor, the one thing that I think has been reassuring about the recent events is the speed with which the regional powers who have an interest—

  Q284  John Battle: Australia?

  Hilary Benn: Australia. —piled in there really quickly, and I think that should encourage us, because I do believe that one of the ways in which we are going to increase our capacity globally to deal with these kind of situations is to encourage regional capacity and regional responsibility. Fundamentally a divvying up of the world, so you have got the African Union beginning to do work like this in Africa. It is sensible that Australia and New Zealand, I think, have sent troops (I think New Zealand have in addition to Australia) should come in very quickly, the UN then getting organised in a sense to bless that, because it is about doing something very practical when conflict breaks out.

  Q285  John Battle: The first time the conflict was there it was the Ghurkhas, actually, who were there within two days of the conflict the last time round, but what the Australians are saying is that the situation is more difficult, the conflict is internal, not between two countries, and that more work needed to have gone on, on the ground, tackling questions like jobs, unemployment, as well as making the Army redundant, and that we needed more intensive work by people on the ground, and I am now thinking including DFID's staff in those situations in there in a more intense way and for longer. Is that doable within the framework of the Treasury generally, the suggestion that you reduce by 10% and all the rest of it? How can we put together strategies to tackle the most difficult circumstances when we are just fire-fighting and moving around here, there and everywhere when there is a crisis, or am I being too pessimistic?

  Hilary Benn: I do not think we are fire-fighting moving around. In the case of East Timor, somebody else is looking after that, not us. In the case of the DRC, Sudan, Sierra Leone, or Afghanistan we have been there for some time in different forms and we certainly are getting on with doing it, and I accept entirely your point about that is where you need to put more of your people. We cannot overstate the capacity of one donor, however good or otherwise we are, to solve really complex, deep-seated problems. Afghanistan, since it is very fresh in my mind, is a really good example of that; just the sheer lack of capacity in a country which is phenomenally poor. There you are trying to do two things: one is to build the capacity of the state in the end to do it for itself, but, on the other hand, there are things that you need to do in the short-term. That will be the issue in the DRC, and one of the things that we are working on now is programmes that can deliver very quickly after the elections, particularly in the east of the country, because of the reason I gave earlier, the public will have said, "We have cast our vote. Where is the benefit?", and in the DRC it is going to take a lot of time for the Government to build its capacity even to begin to do the kind of things that one would expect the Government to be doing.

  Q286  John Battle: Especially if the election simply gives a democratic mandate to those already in power?

  Hilary Benn: I think there is a lot to be said for democratic mandate, but the big fear I have is will all the political parties that are participating in the election have a stake in post-election DRC, and whoever wins the presidential election has a really heavy responsibility, in my view, to reach out to those other parties to, in effect, maintain the transitional coalition, because if somebody thinks that they can win and take all of the power, that will be the most dangerous moment for the DRC. I think Jim Drummond wanted to add a point on staffing resources.

  Mr Drummond: We keep two kinds of standing capacity, one for humanitarian emergencies, the operations team that you met the other day, and the Post-conflict Reconstruction Unit, which is a cross government unit which can draw in staff in these kinds of emergencies. Within DFID we are establishing a rapid response pool of people who might be deployed for three to six months perhaps to help us get moving more quickly. I think we also have to try and then change the incentives for people, so that we have more people who have the right skills and are keen to go and work in these difficult environments, which is going to be the challenge for the next five or 10 years. We are making some early progress on that but not enough yet.

  Q287  Mr Davies: The same rapid response team who you would deploy either in the disaster emergencies or in the post-conflict reconstruction operation. Is that right? You want to have a pool of people you can deploy at short notice for either of those purposes. Is that right? The same pool.

  Mr Drummond: We want to supplement that by having a pool of people from DFID's main staff who can be moved out of their existing jobs for a short period to a higher priority activity.

  Q288  Mr Davies: Into either of those areas?

  Mr Drummond: To any kind of crisis, yes.

  Q289  John Bercow: Secretary of State, you said you are grappling with these issues at the moment, as will be reflected in the White Paper, but in a sense it constitutes work in progress and, significantly, you added the rider that one could not or should not overestimate the capacity of any one donor, no matter how well-intentioned or generous spirited to do it all or the bulk of it. Nevertheless, I think that in a sense what we need today is a progress report and, dare I say it with reference to Mr Drummond's last remarks, a form of rapid response if you like. Perhaps I could ask you on the subject of starting commitment in the DRC, what has been the increase in the number of personnel in the DRC this year by comparison with last?

  Hilary Benn: I cannot tell you the answer to that. I would have to check.

  Q290  John Bercow: What has been the change in terms of the seniority of the designation or the specification of the skill in the DFID staff commitment for this year by comparison with last?

  Hilary Benn: I am afraid I do not know the detail on that either. I am sorry. I will happily find out.

  Q291  John Bercow: I would be very grateful.

  Hilary Benn: I will, of course[9].


  Q292  John Bercow: You did, interestingly, hint to us that consideration was being given at the moment to the question of the seniority of status of the head of DFID/DRC. Is there a reasonable prospect that within a short period of, say, three months the position of head of DFID/DRC will be on a par with that of the counterpart in Kenya?

  Hilary Benn: No, I would not say that. What I would say is that we are looking at the senior management structure of the organisation more generally and ask ourselves precisely these questions. Have we got the right people at the right level with the responsibility for the task that we are taking on, and, as we look as if we are going to be moving more of our people into the places that are more difficult to work, how we are going to reflect that in the staffing structure? I can also say in relation to the office in the DRC, we have had some difficulties in recruiting, which I am sure you picked up during the course of your visit.

  Q293  John Bercow: What has been the change in recent times—let us take the period of the last 12 months or, if you prefer, a slightly longer period, in the level of financial provision or person hours, however it is best or most readily calculated—in language training for the staff designated there? I do at this point look in the direction of Mr Drummond, because I recognise that these are points of detail. Can I just say, Chairman, the Secretary of State knows the great interest that the Committee takes in the work of the Department and very much appreciates the frequency with which he appears as well as the detail in which he seeks to reply to our questions, and so this is simply to try to establish the facts. I do feel that we are now so clear, Chairman, about the Department's overall intentions and commitment and also quite clear about the quality of a lot of its work, but we do often have to probe these rather specific details which, I accept, ministers cannot always be expected to have at their fingertips, but they are rather important.

  Hilary Benn: I accept that entirely. I take responsibility for everything and I am sorry I cannot help the Committee and you, Mr Bercow, with the answers. Had I known, I would very happily have come with the facts and I will, of course, dig them out and provide them to you as soon as I possibly can.

  Q294  John Bercow: I have got a feeling that Mr Drummond might be able to help in the meantime.

  Mr Drummond: I do not think I will be able to help you in the detail that you are looking for, but I think we have probably underprovided for French language training, as you implied, and we have recently agreed that we will increase from about a month to six months or thereabouts.

  Q295  Chairman: That, if I may say so, is a very pertinent point. We were told it was three weeks for DFID staff, six months for Foreign Office staff. It meant that the High Commission very often had to carry—

  Mr Evans: It has now gone up to a minimum of two months of French language training. The requirement will depend on the competence of the person at the start, but there has been a change of policy very recently; so all the new staff now going to DRC will get considerably more language training support than they had before. As far as the issue of the office is concerned, over the last eighteen months the head of the office position has gone up by two grades and is now at the level appropriate for a unit or office head. There are two grade levels running offices, which are adjacent to one another, and the DRC is consistent with several other offices in Africa at the moment in the seniority of leadership[10].


  Q296  John Bercow: I am very grateful for those answers, and any further details will be appreciated. Can I finally put what might seem a rather prosaic but I hope relevant point. It seems to me that the Department needs, on the one hand, to increase capacity and particularly the types of relevant capacity in the short-term, but also to give some steer as to the extent to which it is committed for the long-term and what in the Department's view constitutes the long-term. What I mean by that is this. When ministers say, "We are looking at this, we are looking at that; we are considering this, we are considering that", we understand that the wheels of government do not move that quickly, but the fact is that people are dying in very substantial numbers and people need help now. So, in a sense, even more so than in respect of domestic policy, there is a premium on these considerations taking place relatively quickly and decisions being made. Secondly, as far as the long-term is concerned, whilst I accept, Secretary of State, that you cannot speak for the Government or even necessarily yourself for a period of many years hence, would I be other-worldly or unrealistic if I were to suppose that you might be envisaging an involvement by your Department in the DRC for a period of at least another 10 years.

  Hilary Benn: The short answer is we are in the DRC for the long-term, and I hope that gives you the reassurance. I think to be a bit fair, which you always are, Mr Bercow, if you look at where we have gone from in relation to the DRC, which is basically not a lot apart from humanitarian relief, to what we are doing now and the programme (at least I have got some figures I can give you) which was in 05/06 about £56 million, this year around £63 million, next year £70 million, around half of which humanitarian, I do not think anyone could look at that from a very low base not all that long ago when there were only three members. The first time I went I think there were only three members of staff. There are now 33. I think that is indication of a pretty strong commitment both to the DRC and to doing more and increasing our effort pretty darn quickly, if I may say so.

  Q297  Chairman: I may recall that, having cut the turf of the new offices, the first question the press asked me was which Congolese companies were getting the contract for building the DFID offices? I tried to point out that there was a much more ambitious purpose for these offices than just awarding the contract. However, I am glad to say the answer was acceptable.

  Hilary Benn: I am very relieved to hear that.

  Q298  Chairman: Actually Simon Arthy, who is a conflict adviser with remit, made a very specific point about language, although we thought he was doing extraordinarily well with the French while we were trying to struggle along with our schoolboy French; but he said that there were occasions when you were negotiating with ministers or with top civil servants where, frankly, a three-week fast training course was not good enough to be able to really deliver what DFID is about.

  Hilary Benn: An absolutely fair point, and I am glad you did not ask me about my capacity with the French language, otherwise I would have disappointed you once more.

  Mr Hunt: I was just reflecting whether any questions asked my colleague John Bercow could be described as prosaic, because the words used "other-worldly" are poetically much closer to the mark!

  John Bercow: The cheque is in the post!

  Mr Hunt: Could I move the discussion on from DFID staffing and the DRC to ask a more general question about the relative generosity of funding for conflict situations and post-conflict situations. This is not something that is in any way directed at DFID, but one specific example when I visited Panzi Hospital in Bukavu, which I know DFID is funding a building for, they said that ECHO and the US were withdrawing their funding from this month because it was no longer considered a humanitarian situation, even though, just to look around you, it was obvious that the most appalling atrocities were going on and were being treated by Panzi Hospital. To give the other side to that coin, when we, as a committee, visited the IDP camps in northern Uganda one of the concerns we had was that it might, perversely, be in the interest of the Ugandan Government to maintain IDP camps because they are very good at attracting international funding (the World Food Programme, et cetera, et cetera). I wonder whether you think there is a problem where sometimes certain types of donors pull out of situations too soon instead of the adequately making sure that the foundations are put in place properly in a post-conflict situation?

  Q299  Chairman: Can you give assurances to the Panzi Hospital, because we were all concerned that the money could not stop, we did not think that could happen.

  Hilary Benn: May I look into it?[11] You tell me that we are funding Panzi Hospital, which I am of course very glad to hear, and I shall look into the issue and, in particular, as you describe, the impact that what other donors are planning to do will have on its capacity to operate. I think from memory about 50 % of our programme is humanitarian, and I foresee that it will continue to be a significant proportion. There will be a rising programme in terms of the money, as I have just described. Exactly what the balance will be, whether it will fall as a proportion slightly or not, frankly remains to be seen, but it will continue to be a very important part of what we do because the emergency needs—. Well, you saw it for yourself.




8   Revolutionary United Front. Back

9   Ev 123 Back

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