Examination of Witness (Questions 120-139)
RT HON
TONY BLAIR
MP
22 NOVEMBER 2005
Q120 Mr Denham: After 7 July a very
big and ambitious out-reach programme was launched to reach the
Muslim community you referred to yourself. What I want to know
is why such a programme was not launched earlier at the time that
the police, the security services and you yourself knew that the
possibility of British suicide bombers was out there?
Mr Blair: There were a whole series
of measures that we were taking already, part actually arising
out of the reports we were discussing earlier. Certainly so far
as the security services were concerned, ever since September
11 we have gone into a different level of surveillance and so
on. Of course it is different from thinking something may happen
to actually it happening, and then that produces quite properly
and rightly a completely different form of analysis of the situation.
Q121 Mr Denham: It is understandable
that the public would now know why we are doing that as a Government;
but what is less clear is why the Government did not launch that
sort of out-reach programme much earlier when the Government did
not need to wait until a bomb went off to know we were likely
to have a problem?
Mr Blair: It is precisely for
that reason that after September 11 we did put in place a whole
series of measures to do with surveillance and to do, indeed,
with out-reach.
Q122 Mr Denham: If you looked at
the counterterrorist effort over the last four years, Prime Minster,
with all the benefit of hindsight (which of course we all have
on a day like this) would you say that perhaps the effort that
was put into security and intelligence was not matched then by
the effort into winning hearts and minds?
Mr Blair: No, I do not think I
would say that. We have put a lot of effort into both, but I think
it is perfectly natural that when a terrorist act occurs in that
way everybody, including the community itself, then accepts the
need for something that is completely different—you have
entered into a different dimension with this.
Q123 Mr Denham: It needs the bomb
to go off to put in place what we have now got?
Mr Blair: No. I would say there
was an awful lot that was already in place, particularly on the
security services in terms of surveillance. We have been engaging
with the Muslim community, in particular, for a long time but
naturally it takes on an even bigger dimension once a terrorist
act occurs. I think it would be really quite deeply unfair to
suggest that nobody was doing anything about this prior to 7 July.
On the contrary, even since September 11 there has been a huge
ramping up of the security service capability and the issue to
do with out-reach.
Q124 Mr Denham: Can we look at some
of the hearts and minds questions. Prime Minister, in 2004 the
paper the Cabinet received from the Home Office and the Foreign
Office identified a list of factors that might attract some to
extremism and said, ". . . a perception of `double standards'
in British foreign policy, where democracy is preached but oppression
of [Muslims] is practised or tolerated . . . a consequent sense
of helplessness over the situation of Muslims generally; the lack
of any real opportunities to vent frustration". Leaving aside
whether such a point of view is justified, do you accept that
that feeling exists and is one of the factors that leads to extremism?
Mr Blair: I have absolutely no
doubt, as I have always said, to believe that the extremists will
use any issue to do with foreign policy—whether it is Iraq,
Afghanistan, Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya, or Bosnia actually
a few years back. In fact you even get people who use Kosovo as
an example of that.
Q125 Mr Denham: When you received
that report in 2004—you have got an issue here; you clearly
cannot just change your foreign policy because people do not like
it, otherwise we would have left the EU years ago, so you cannot
just switch your foreign policy! However, what actually did the
Government do in 2004—knowing there was a problem out there
being exploited by extremists—to get out there and address
this question in the Muslim community?
Mr Blair: We challenged it. I
was constantly doing it myself. You have got to challenge this
sense.
Q126 Mr Denham: How was it challenged,
Prime Minister?
Mr Blair: Challenged by saying
to people—and this is what I genuinely believe—you
have got to challenge this sense of grievance. There is no justifiable
sense of grievance. I tell you what I thought, when I saw the
video of one of the suicide bombers from 7 July talking about
what had happened I looked and I said, "This is someone brought
up in this country, who has got all the freedoms they have in
this country; who has got a good standard of life as a result
of being in this country", and one of the things we have
got to do is to challenge the notion that he can stand up and
say, "This is a country that is oppressing people of my religion".
That is rubbish. I know you are not saying this but I do worry
about this sometimes, that there is a tendency for us to go into
the community and say, "We kind of understand why you feel
like you feel, but we disagree with your methods in dealing with
it". Actually, I do not agree that there is a sense of grievance.
People may disagree with this or that aspect of foreign policy,
but it not merely that nothing justifies the act of terrorism—the
actual grievance about foreign policy is misplaced. Whether America
is right or wrong or Britain is right or wrong in its foreign
policy, it is not pursuing it because of the religion of the people
concerned.
Q127 Mr Denham: I think we would
accept that, Prime Minister, but in the report of the Muslim Working
Group, the group of advisers that the Government brought together,
they concluded last week, "British foreign policy—especially
in the Middle East—cannot be left unconsidered as a factor
in the motivations of criminal radical extremists. We [that is
your advisers] believe it is a key contributory factor".
The question I am putting to you is: the people who are telling
you what is going on in the community are saying this is an issue.
You were saying that we should not change the policy. How then
are you going to deal with this issue to neutralise it in communities
so that it cannot be used by extremists in that way?
Mr Blair: By getting into the
community—and via the leaders, and fortunately we have got
some within the Muslim community, including our own Muslim MPs
who are prepared to go into the community—and saying, "Hang
on a minute, what's happening in Afghanistan is that six million
people can vote. What's happening in Iraq is that ten million
people can vote for their Government. It is the same terrorism
that is killing innocent people in those two countries. The idea
that you can possibly justify killing innocent people on the London
Underground or London buses by reference to Iraq, Afghanistan
or Palestine is completely absurd". You will not deal with
this, in my view, unless you go in and challenge this full-frontally
and say, "This is born out of a set of attitudes about America,
Israel and Western policy that are simply wrong". Unless
you challenge the fundamentals of that view, in my view, what
you do is end up in this twilight world of political engagement.
Q128 Mr Denham: Finally, how are
you going to organise this? You are talking about a mixed message.
At the moment from all the advice you are getting it sounds as
though people are being preached at by Government and not engaged
in a dialogue. How are you actually going to organise it to make
sure that the work that was not done over the last three or four
years is now done?
Mr Blair: That is a very good
point. I do not think it is just for me, or ministers, to go and
do this, for very obvious reasons. We actually need leaders from
the Muslim community, role models from the Muslim community, to
go in there and talk about this. I was up in Leeds on Thursday
with 40 or 50 16-25-year-old Muslim men and women, and I think
there are plenty of very good role models, young people within
the community, who do not buy any of this extremism and, indeed,
are the people who in the end deal with the extremism by standing
up in their community and simply saying, "I don't accept
this. I may completely disagree with what America or Britain is
doing, but I have got a way of disagreeing with it, it's called
democracy and that's what I'm going to exercise", or, "Maybe
we should think about another point of view and take on this extremism".
What came out from those 40 or 50 young people, and obviously
they raised some of these issues but the other thing they raised
was their intense anger that their religion, which is a peaceful
religion, was being abused by extremists. I think that is also
a very important point that we need to get across. I agree with
you, it is not going to be done just by me standing up and sounding
off.
Q129 Sir Patrick Cormack: Prime Minister,
I think many of us would agree with much of what you have just
been saying, and I think many of us round this table admire the
courage with which you faced up to Northern Ireland when you first
became Prime Minister; but tomorrow your Government is presenting
to the House of Commons the "on the run" legislation.
You talk about grievances and you talk about winning hearts and
minds, but there is no party in Northern Ireland, other than Sinn
Fein, which has any time for this legislation at all. There
are people who have committed atrocities on a par with those that
you have referred to, Enniskillen, Omagh and so on who will be
the beneficiaries of this legislation. It was not part of the
Good Friday Agreement; it was not in your manifesto; it is being
introduced as emergency legislation without pre-legislative scrutiny,
which your Secretary of State has specifically refused. Why?
Mr Blair: First of all, let me
say to you, Sir Patrick, you were kind enough to say about my
position on these issues and I would say the same about yours
and I am sorry we disagree about this issue. The legislation "on
the run" arose out of the joint declaration that the British
and Irish Governments made. We published this now going back two
years. It has never been a secret, and I have spoken about this
continually, that we need to do something because otherwise there
is an anomaly. For those people convicted of crimes before the
Good Friday Agreement in 1998 they are now out of prison and free.
People can agree with that or disagree with that but that is the
case. It was therefore always going to be an anomaly that we have
to resolve in respect of those people who had not been convicted
but nonetheless were sought for crimes pre-1998, and that is what
"on the run" deals with. It does not of course deal
with the Omagh situation.
Q130 Sir Patrick Cormack: Why, Prime
Minister, is there not the opportunity for pre-legislative scrutiny
of this highly contentious and detailed legislation? There is
no emergency here. You may say you are committed to introducing
the legislation. You may say there are anomalies which have to
be addressed. I accept that. Why is there not the opportunity
for parliamentarians, either my own committee or a joint committee
of both Houses, to crawl over this, to take evidence and to make
sure you have got it right?
Mr Blair: I understand that point.
Q131 Sir Patrick Cormack: Can you
do something about it?
Mr Blair: Let me just tell you
why I think, however, we have got to proceed the way that we have.
First of all, as I say, this has not popped out. There is a sense
in which some of the comments made by some of those in Northern
Ireland are that this has come as a shock. This is part of the
discussion we have had with parties in Northern Ireland going
back over several years. The second thing is, I really believe
it is best to get this issue out of the way so that we can get
on with building the possibility of an executive assembly that
is back up and running again. If this process hangs over for any
longer it will do nobody any good.
Q132 Sir Patrick Cormack: Prime Minister,
none of the Northern Ireland parties, those who play a legitimate
and full part, neither of the Unionist parties, not the SDLP,
nor the Alliance Party, none of them want this legislation in
the form in which you are presenting it. Your problems are exacerbated
to some degree by the fact that, at this the most critical juncture
in Northern Ireland's most recent history, you have chosen to
appoint a secretary of state (and I strongly support what he is
trying to do) who has two jobs and the people of Northern Ireland
do not like that; they do not like to think that he is Secretary
of State for Wales as well. Can you address that too?
Mr Blair: To be absolutely frank,
no-one has ever raised that with me in Northern Ireland.
Q133 Sir Patrick Cormack: I am raising
it now.
Mr Blair: That is true!
Q134 Sir Patrick Cormack: Many people
have raised it with me in Northern Ireland. I am raising it with
you and I want you to give an answer to those people. We have
always in the past had a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
who has had that specific responsibility. One could understand
if devolution had come back and the Assembly was there where you
might say, "This is something we can recognise by having
a part-timer". This is not casting any aspersions on Mr Hain,
but it is not sending out good signals.
Mr Blair: Without getting myself
into hot water in Wales, I think the principal reason for the
combining as with Alistair Darling, Secretary of State for Scotland
and Secretary of State for Transport, is that actually because
of devolution in Wales and in Scotland there is a very much reduced
requirement for a workload there.
Q135 Sir Patrick Cormack: That does
not apply to Northern Ireland at the moment.
Mr Blair: Northern Ireland, no,
but neither with Transport frankly. I do not think any of the
problems there are in Northern Ireland arise because Peter has
not had the time to do this. The "on the run" thing
is very, very difficult. You are absolutely right in what you
say; it is true that political parties in Northern Ireland are
never going to agree to this legislation. On the other hand, what
I do also say to you (and I have spent more time on Northern Ireland
than I think any of my predecessors going back a very long way)
is that they all actually know this has to be done. It does not
surprise me that they are going to oppose it very rigorously and
say some very harsh things about the Government (and that is something
we have weathered all the way through this peace process) but
I also genuinely believe this is a smallish number of people and
we need to get this out of the way and deal with it so that we
then get on with what I think is going to be the really tough
thing, which is re-building consent for the institutions.
Q136 Malcolm Bruce: Prime Minister,
you have said in trying to secure the terrorism legislation that
you listened to the police and security forces and that you expect
Parliament to do the same. You obviously have not been successful
in persuading the House of Commons of that! Just in the light
of what Sir Patrick has said, how can you say that we should listen
to the Chief Constables in Great Britain when you apparently have
not listened to the Chief Constable of Northern Ireland who said
on the day that the Bill Sir Patrick is talking about was published
that he had not read it at that point, but he said, "One
thing I am clear on is that this is not the way of dealing with
closure in the holistic sense. The indications are that the Northern
Ireland police are not supporting this legislation". When
is it right to listen to the police and when is it not right to
listen to the police?
Mr Blair: You have got to make
a judgment on each case, obviously. Incidentally, the Chief Constable
of Northern Ireland is doing a quite superb job. He has built
up the police service in Northern Ireland in a fantastic way.
It is really of no surprise, however, that somebody representing
the police in Northern Ireland, given the terrible killing and
maiming of police officers from the RUC, should say that. I am
not pretending this is an easy issue at all. As you know, there
are some issues where I will go forward with a certain amount
of utter certainty. This is an issue that is uncomfortable to
deal with for very obvious reasons but my view all the way through
it has been (and this has been rolling around the discussion in
Northern Ireland for several years even before we put it in the
Joint Declaration a couple of years ago) if you do not deal with
this you cannot move the thing forward. I think the most important
thing is to move it forward, but I do not minimise the anger there
will be in certain quarters, or indeed the anguish particularly
if you are the relative of a police officer in Northern Ireland
who was killed by an IRA terrorist.
Q137 Malcolm Bruce: Would it be reasonable
for the police in Northern Ireland to lobby MPs to try and persuade
them to oppose this bill?
Mr Blair: I am sure if they want
to do that they are perfectly free to do it.
Q138 Malcolm Bruce: You would not
object to that?
Mr Blair: No, it is up to the
police to say. I am slightly mystified by this, because in my
experience the police have always lobbied on things. The one thing
I have never found about the police is that they were shy!
Q139 Malcolm Bruce: In the context
of Westminster they have not been successful in persuading the
House of Commons of the case. That legislation is now in the House
of Lords and clearly it will emerge in some shape or other. How
are you going to react to an amended bill? Given that you have
indicated this is urgent legislation, would you be prepared to
accept an amended bill, negotiate a compromise, or use the Parliament
Act which would leave you with no legislation for a year? Is it
not more important to get a bill that has the support of Parliament
as well as the Government?
Mr Blair: The most important thing
is to get a bill that does the job that protects this country
against terrorism. That is the most important thing that we can
possibly do.
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