Examination of Witness (Questions 20-36)
LORD ADONIS
1 MARCH 2006
Q20 Sir Nicholas Winterton:
I have been in Parliament for 35 years. On a regular basis I visit
my secondary schools and have a very, very good relationship with
them. Surely it is the experience of life—and we come back
to history and Richard Shepherd—that is so important to
enable people to have an understanding of citizenship and what
their responsibilities should be. Can you deal with that?
Lord Adonis: No. As to the form
of the political parties and the whipping system it is beyond
my remit. I think you make a very good point about the cost. Of
course it is the case that those who are coming to Parliament
from further away do have to pay the considerable costs engaged
in this. In my experience of schools that do organise trips, if
you have a teacher who is committed to organising a trip they
will ensure that it happens and the cost then is not the major
factor. I think we referred earlier to the role of the LGA and
local authorities; it could well be that part of what local authorities
can do to promote access to Parliament and greater knowledge of
it where they are in constituencies that are further away might
help to defray the costs to schools. There might be a kind of
incentive to get teachers to organise trips on a more systematic
basis. I think that point is well taken but, as I say, in my experience
if you have teachers who are passionate about the subject and
organise the trips, the trips will take place. If it were possible
perhaps to have some kind of funds, this is maybe something the
LGA could look at and it might encourage those who are further
away from London to take advantage of it.
Q21 Mr Shepherd: We do
have a problem of capacity in these buildings obviously and there
is a sort of iniquity that the Houses of Parliament can only hold
so many and with its other commitments—it is a working place—it
is a sort of block we come up against. I would love all my schools
to be able to come here but if that were so of every local education
authority in the country it simply cannot happen. It is only a
tiny fraction that can and therefore the actual teaching is crucial.
I cannot remember what age I was when I came here but probably
17 or 18 and that was because of proximity to London. It was not
on an organised basis; it was getting from my Member of Parliament
a ticket for the gallery. I would like the focus to be on what
we can do out in the country, a national standard rather than
the opportunity of everyone to get here because it simply cannot
happen.
Lord Adonis: I take all these
points to be important but I certainly would not like to see students
not being able to come here because of the cost.
Q22 Lynda Waltho: I am
a former teacher and also the mother of two teenage boys. It is
very difficult to engage young people in bits of paper and books
when they have the pull of the computer and all sorts of electronic
devices. It is IT really that I am interested in because I see
it as a way not only of making teaching more interesting but also
encouraging the inter-active nature of how we should be going.
I think it would help with the problem of constituencies being
further away from London. Dare I say that there should be something
like "MP Cam" so that they could actually watch the
whole process and see where the work is being done on committees,
for instance. What I was wondering is if you see a role for IT,
particularly the inter-active side, but also about resources for
that because I think that is certainly a way of engaging most
of the young people I know in this process. Yes, they should still
come here, but I do not think that one visit is going to be enough.
I think seeing what is going on on almost a daily basis would
actually be more valuable.
Lord Adonis: That is an important
point. We have worked with the Hansard Society developing on-line
chat sites to develop interest in public issues and so on. That
has been highly successful. I do agree with that. I also note
that one of Lord Puttnam's main recommendations is that the parliamentary
website should be radically improved. At a minimum it should be
consultative, interactive and easily navigable. Clearly they see
the role of the website which Parliament itself provides as something
that could give a good boost in this area and, of course, you
are one of the main sources being Googled by citizenship teachers
and students when they actually want to gather materials themselves.
I should imagine one of the first things they do is to look at
the website of their local Member of Parliament and seek to find
out more about them and so on. I think there is an important role
that IT can play in this area. Whilst there is criticism in Lord
Puttnam's report about the parliamentary website at large, having
Hansard available on line in the way that it is from the day after
is an immensely valuable resource for schools and others engaged
in education. What was a prohibitively expensive publication before—to
my mind scandalously expensive—in seeking to have the record
of Parliament made available to all is now available free of charge
immediately. I think there have been some very significant improvements
in this area which have helped a lot but there must be further
we can go.
Q23 Mark Lazarowicz: Lynda
Waltho talked about the possibility of something like "MP
Cam" but in fact we are now being recorded and perhaps being
broadcast somewhere and certainly the BBC Parliament channel is
on all the time. Is there any way in which the existing recordings
of various committees can actually play a part in the education
process within the schools in a more organised way? Clearly the
big debates tend to be at times of the day when schools are not
in operation but if there is a big debate there could be the opportunity
the next day for people to see something relating to that. It
would seem to me that would give a topical advantage as well.
Lord Adonis: The televising of
Parliament has transformed accessibility in this area. I was at
one school where they actually moved their GCSE citizenship class
to noon on Wednesdays so they could begin the class by watching
Prime Minister's Questions live which I imagine the Committee
will be greatly impressed by. I think most students find that
the most exciting part of the work of Parliament, actually seeing
the party leaders engaging personally.
Q24 Chairman: That is
the arena, the theatre; is that actually Parliament?
Lord Adonis: It is clearly part
of Parliament but equally the Parliament channel and the teachers
recording parts of the channel and using it in their lessons does
have a role to play. I am very struck on the Parliament channel
as somebody who flicks on to it as I go through Freeview every
evening. It has brought the committees of the House and the committees
of the House of Lords alive in a wholly new way. They, as it were,
were the great hidden part of the work of Parliament so far as
the televising of Parliament was concerned. About half of the
broadcasting that takes place on the Parliament channel must be
of the committees and they are often fascinating to watch and
they do show the other side of the work of Parliament which is
at least as important as the more formal and theatrical debates.
Q25 Graham Stringer: The
Transport Select Committee was on television at 10 o'clock on
Christmas Day evening. Somebody told me that they had watched
the Transport Committee; this person is married as well. The Transport
Committee gets disproportionate coverage because it is immediately
accessible; people understand when the Committee are talking about
rail fares or the noise of aeroplanes. Some of the other committees
are less accessible and it strikes me that there might be a role
of explanation and support in the Parliamentary channel that would
help accessibility to the work that we do in this place. I wondered
if you had an opinion or had thought about that.
Lord Adonis: I had not thought
about it but I think it is a very good point. I have not looked
at the audience figures for the Parliament channel but I imagine
that the numbers who flick across it and may stop for a few minutes
and, even if it is on Christmas Day and the Transport Committee,
if they can immediately relate to it they tend to stop rather
than move on. I think if there were explanatory materials available
that might be an added advantage and might have a particular relevance
to young people too. I am certainly prepared to look at that further.
I am not sure how the Parliament channel is regulated; I assume
it is a relationship between the BBC and the House authorities
as to how that channel itself is handled but if you think that
we could help at all, if there was a desire to develop explanatory
materials directly relevant to young people, I would be very happy
to oblige.
Chairman: Bearing in mind that broadcast
television is rather old fashioned technology, in the sense that
these discussions that we are having now will be available on
the internet for two weeks, and that most schools that I visit
have white boards and the ability to use the internet as part
of their teaching, I actually think that what is on the Parliament
channel is probably only a small aspect of our concern. We have
now reached the point where everyone who wanted to ask questions
has asked one; a number of colleagues have indicated they would
like to ask a further question. I am going to ask my colleagues
to ask questions of a more specific kind related to the particular
inquiry.
Q26 Mrs May: I just have
a comment on the televising of Parliament. One aspect of Parliament
which is not shown on the Parliamentary channel is the committee
stage of bills and there is a whole raft of activity that goes
on to which people have no access, knowledge or understanding
at all. I actually wanted to ask a question about the curriculum
itself. You mentioned earlier that citizenship was well taught
when it was mainstreamed, yet one of the issues that Ofsted raised
was that where citizenship was mainstreamed across other subjects
it lost out in the teaching of Parliament and the work of Parliament
and the other aspects of the citizenship curriculum. I just wanted
to explore that because certainly parts of the curriculum that
are set out here, certainly in Key Stage 1 and 2 (which I realise
are just guidelines) to me are not citizenship. Naming parts of
the body, for example, is not exactly teaching citizenship itself.
I wonder if you can comment on how you see the balance between
citizenship being best taught in relation to specific lessons
versus mainstream across the curriculum and what the balance should
be between knowledge teaching and skills (which picks up part
of the questioning that Mr Shepherd started).
Lord Adonis: I was not suggesting
that there was an alternative between mainstreaming and teaching
as a specific subject. On the contrary, I think where you have
good citizenship teaching as a specific subject with a large number
of students doing the part GCSE that will have an impact on the
mainstreaming of citizenship in the teaching of other subjects
as well. So I do not see these as either/or. Of course, the requirement
to teach citizenship is a secondary requirement as a statutory
subject and there it should be taught in schools as a subject
to see that the knowledge is imparted. There is a balance there
which is set out clearly in the programmes of study between the
formal instruction and the wider range of skills. The three key
strands are social and moral responsibility, political literacy
and community involvement. You could not do the third without
having practically based skills. In the part GCSE I think a third
depends upon practical engagement and two-thirds is based on subject
knowledge. That seems to me about the right balance. At the primary
level I think the materials you were referring to are materials
which embrace PHSE as well and at primary the two tend to be brought
together so the teaching of parts of the body I do not think was
an introduction to the conduct of committee stages of bills. I
think in the QCA materials we put on the website we embrace PHSE
as well as the wider agenda at primary level. It is an interesting
subject which is debated within the citizenship community, at
what stage you should start teaching formally political literacy.
In the Key Stage 2 curriculum the understanding of what the main
institutions of the state are and so on is there but the actual
formal teaching of political literacy is a Key Stage 3 subject.
I think it is a matter for further consideration whether you could
do more in Key Stage 2 and I think where you have the teachers
who have the enthusiasm and the subject knowledge themselves it
is perfectly appropriate to be teaching Key Stage 2 pupils more
about the actual work of Parliament and democratic institutions
than we do at the moment for the most part in primary schools.
Q27 Sir Nicholas Winterton:
Would you care to introduce there the role of parents which you
failed to respond to when I put the question to you? Why have
you never mentioned the role of parents in the teaching of citizenship?
Lord Adonis: I am very sorry.
I do see it as important it is just that we do not ourselves directly
engage with parents in how they engage in education at home. Of
course it is very important and the more the parents themselves
have come through the process of education in citizenship the
more they will pass to their children in due course.
Q28 Ann Coffey: I wondered
if you had ever considered having a special award for schools
that perhaps ran projects that were very interesting and creative
and how they teach politics.
Lord Adonis: I personally have
not; I do not know whether my Department has. I will look at it
and come back to you. If we could do some award in conjunction
with a reputable body such as the Hansard Society, I could see
how one could do this as a way that could be quite exciting. I
would be very keen to look at it; I do not believe we have specifically
considered that point.
Q29 Mr Vaizey: I would
like to correct the misrepresentation. The reason I asked my question
about the advice to MPs was that having not sat an exam for about
20 years when Lord Adonis cited the GCSE questions I thought that
when I go to speak to my sixth formers I am not sure at what level
to pitch my talk, so it would be interesting for MPs to receive
the GCSE papers so they know what the pupils are learning and
that is the level to pitch a talk. That is the point I was making;
I was not suggesting for a minute that MPs need to be further
educated although the Committee will be interested to know that
I will be taking physics A level this summer because I do not
know any science and my constituency is good at science and I
do believe in life long learning and continuing education.
Lord Adonis: In the course of
transparency and accountability, I hope your constituents will
know the grade that you achieve at the end of the day.
Q30 Mr Vaizey: The grade
will be confidential.
Lord Adonis: I did take Mr Vaizey's
point to refer to the citizenship curriculum and the materials
we give to schools, including GCSE papers and not remotely seeking
to tell MPs how to do their job.
Q31 Ms Butler: I was wondering
what other materials are available for the Citizenship agenda
like DVDs and so on. What is available currently and are there
any plans to make other such things available? The second thing
I wanted to raise was that the biggest consultation that the Government
has embarked upon has been the Youth Matters Green Paper where
almost 20,000 young people have participated in that consultation
process. So to say that young people are not interested or are
completely disengaged in politics is actually incorrect because,
as I say, it was the biggest consultation. I, myself, held a youth
forum in Alperton School in my constituency where over 150 young
people turned up from all over. I think we need to acknowledge
that young people are interested in politics to a degree; what
we have to look at is how we engage them further and we have to
be very careful about how we do that in ensuring that we do make
classes more innovative and more interesting and that we give
credit to everybody's life experiences because, although somebody's
life experiences may differ from another, it does not make it
less worthy or less interesting or less credible. I think you
are right, I would not want to see parents having a defined role
in the citizenship agenda. I think the parents' role in the home
is something which is to teach their children to know right from
wrong and to be good people and be good citizens, but I do not
think they should have a defined role in this agenda in the schools.
I think that would be detracting from what it is supposed to be.
Lord Adonis: I agree with you
and I also completely agree with what you said about the Youth
Matters consultation process. I am constantly struck when I go
to visit schools and colleges by the desire to be engaged, particularly
when it is specific issues of concern. I was in Luton a few weeks
ago at a Muslim youth forum and very large numbers came. Of course
the issue of social relations in Luton has been a big and difficult
issue over time and there was a large group of young Muslim students
who organised a meeting, they had speakers, they wanted to put
their points of view. I met them with the local MP and then, as
I left, they asked if I would speak to them if they organised
another meeting in two months' time. I did not feel I could say
no so I am going to do that too. I think the desire to be further
engaged with is profound and we have a big part to play in meeting
it.
Sir Nicholas Winterton: I entirely agree
that young people are interested in politics but translating that
interest into voting is, of course, another matter and I still
feel that some of what I said has a bearing on why so many people
do not vote. I have been challenged over parents; schools want
parental support so I have to say that I believe that in getting
through the importance of citizenship, parents working with schools
can have a very important role to play.
Ms Butler: The Education White Paper
tackles parental support in schools quite well.
Q32 Sir Nicholas Winterton:
Indeed it does but I think we should see more parental involvement.
The question I want to put to Lord Adonis is that in seeking to
get the whole purpose of citizenship across do you contact organisations
like the Junior Chambers, Round Table, Rotary and other organisations
in addition to the Hansard Society that actually do seek to get
young people together for public speaking, for public debate and
on matters relating to citizenship? Should you not broaden the
appeal that you are making to voluntary organisations—many
of them involved with service—who could in fact carry a
great deal of influence with young people in respect of citizenship.
Lord Adonis: We have been talking
particularly this morning about political literacy which is one
of the three elements of citizenship but a good deal of the citizenship
curriculum engages with a much wider range of issues—human
rights, civic organisations, local government—and in those
areas we have indeed engaged in the development of a curriculum
and the materials with a very wide range of organisations which
have contributions to make. The issue which I noticed was raised
in your report that you are now following up is the balance between
political literacy and these other areas in the formal citizenship
curriculum. Your concern was that there was not enough emphasis
being placed on the formal teaching of Parliament and political
institutions and that is what I was seeking to respond to in emphasising
the particular work we have done with the Hansard Society. I entirely
agree with you that it is a very wide agenda there of engagement
with wider civic society and that is a crucial part of the teaching
of citizenship effectively in schools.
Q33 Liz Blackman: Do you
think that lowering the voting age to 16 would engage more people
in politics and make them more positive towards the citizenship
curriculum? It is quite a hot topic at the moment; what is your
take on it?
Lord Adonis: I can only give a
personal view on this. I personally do support lowering the voting
age to 16. I think if we expect young people to be responsible
we have to give them the rights to go with the responsibility.
I think if sixth form students in schools were themselves actually
voters they would come to these issues with a much greater sense
of engagement. We have talked about polling stations in schools
and if part of the electorate locally were the older students
in schools I think that would give a much deeper sense of engagement
and commitment. I should stress that these are personal views
and I realise that there will be other views which are strongly
the other way.
Q34 Mr Knight: When you
write to us will you send us a copy of the Citizenship syllabus?
I would find that useful. Going back to something you said at
the beginning, does your Department provide any advice or guidance
to the parliamentary guides and, if not, is there not a case for
you so doing? I actually will not use the parliamentary guides
when I have a party of school children at Westminster because
I feel they dwell too long on general history and do not explain
adequately how Parliament works. I have seen too many parties
of school children with their eyes glazed over, after ten minutes,
having listened to a monologue for 15 minutes in front of a picture
of The Last Sleep of Argyll. That is not what they are here for;
they want to see how Parliament works and I do feel one small
step would be to give some guidance to the guides who carry out
this work.
Lord Adonis: We are at the service
of the House. If you think we can play a role and our citizenship
advisers can play a role in this we would be more than happy to
do so.
Q35 Chairman: I think
everyone who wanted to ask a question has now asked it. I do not
know whether you have any concluding remarks that you would like
to make Lord Adonis.
Lord Adonis: I think it has been
a very valuable session. A number of concrete suggestions have
come out which I will take away and write to you. Equally, on
a number of the points that have been raised if you were minded
to make recommendations we would wish to work with you closely
in seeing that they were realised.
Q36 Chairman: We are extremely
grateful to you for the work of your Department in this area.
I think one of the key issues that we will have to examine is
the relationship between what we do in Parliament—in the
Commons in particular—and the work that the Department is
undertaking. I think there is a slight risk that we might pass
each other in some areas of the work that we are both engaged
upon and I think we need to ensure that what we do is coherent
with the excellent work that is being conducted in the Department.
Can I add the thanks of the Committee to my own personal thanks
for the time that you have devoted to this subject and the fact
that you have made yourself available this morning for our questions.
Lord Adonis: Thank you. I look
forward to Christmas Day next year watching the proceedings of
the Committee.
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