Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-69)
RT HON
PETER HAIN
MP, MR NICK
PERRY AND
MR ROBERT
HANNIGAN
10 MAY 2006
Q60 Sammy Wilson: Chairman, I think
anybody listening to this discussion, to hear the Secretary of
State say—and I do not accept the figure—that only
541 people have been sent letters in Northern Ireland that they
were excluded from a job because of their religion and that somehow
is acceptable, it really beggars belief that 541 people have been
told they were good enough for a job and, because of their religion,
they were not accepted for the job. That is your own figure now,
Secretary of State, and I believe that the figure is much greater
than that.
Mr Hain: If you want to take figures
out selectively, then that is your choice. Let me remind you that
over 93% of all Catholic applications have also been unsuccessful.
It is only a tiny minority of all these applicants, simply because
of the 13,000 who apply each year and the availability of only
around 440 or so slots, it is only a tiny minority that succeed;
93% of Catholics fail as well.
Q61 Sammy Wilson: Secretary of State,
we are not talking about people who fail to qualify for the job,
we are talking about the 541 which refers to people who went through
the process, who were deemed to have qualified for the job and
who were then rejected on the basis that they were the wrong religion.
Although you say it is not discriminatory, the Chief Constable
has said frankly he believes it is discriminatory, as has the
Deputy Chairman of the Police Board said it is discriminatory.
I do not think anyone looking at this objectively can say it is
not discriminatory.
Mr Hain: Let me put a question
back to you then. Do you think it is a good thing there are more
Catholics in the PSNI?
Q62 Sammy Wilson: I think it is a
good thing that people are applying from all communities and I
believe people from all communities should have equal access.
Mr Hain: The record speaks for
itself. We have gone from 8% to 20% in a very short space of time,
so we will reach 30% in a short space of time and then the policy
will be put on ice.
Q63 Sammy Wilson: We have gone from
one figure to another because of a policy of direct discrimination.
Mr Hain: We have to disagree on
that.
Q64 Sammy Wilson: I do not believe
it will be acceptable here in England. All I can say is, you have
indicated to this Committee today that letters have gone out to
people saying that they cannot get a job because of their religion.
Given the fact that for most of the advertisements for jobs in
the police, we have about 10,000 people responding and a good
mix of people from all parts of society in Northern Ireland, why
can we not at this stage, because we are getting applicants from
across the community, let people be chosen on merit?
Mr Hain: Fifty-five thousand people
have applied to join the PSNI since it was brought into existence.
Only a handful of those, relatively speaking, have been able to
be appointed. The reason for the rejection of applications is
simply overwhelmingly—including 93% of Catholics that applied—because
there are not the jobs for them or they do not qualify. In the
case of only a very small minority, the figure you are quoting,
that is a result of the policy, but I think it is in the interests
of effective policing that the PSNI is representative of the whole
community.
Q65 Chairman: But you are confirming
that, as a result of the policy, Secretary of State, there is
a small number of people, 500 and something, who effectively have
been barred because of who they are and what they are? That is
the situation. It is an unfortunate result of the policy, but
you are confirming that is the case?
Mr Hain: That clearly is the case,
I am not denying the fact, but it is a very small proportion of
the number of Protestants who apply that are rejected for that
reason. It is less than 2%, so that means that over 98% do not
succeed for other reasons, either there are not the jobs for them
or they are not suitably qualified. I come back to this figure,
which I will quote back to anybody who puts this point to me,
that 93% of Catholics also do not succeed.
Q66 Sammy Wilson: I think the Minister
of State is playing with figures here. It is a third of the people
throughout all of the campaigns from the beginning of the recruitment
until now who qualified, who got through the assessment, who were
deemed as being capable of carrying out a job, but who were turned
down on the basis of their religion.
Mr Hain: As I say, less than 2%.
That figure you quoted, Sammy, comes from without taking into
account the number of jobs that are available. There are a limited
number of jobs available.
Q67 Stephen Pound: In my constituency,
Secretary of State, I have a very large African-Caribbean community
and a South Asian community and, until very recently, 100% non-South
Asian and non-African-Caribbean police force. If two people with
identical qualifications applied to Hendon today, somebody from
an African-Caribbean or a South Asian background will get the
job over someone else simply because we are trying to get a police
force that looks like the constituency. I am asking whether you
had any consultation with the Metropolitan Police Service who
have been operating precisely this policy not just in the lifetime
of this Government but in the previous Government with the consent
of virtually everybody involved. Inevitably, some people will
say Passe« in the American Presidential Election a few years
ago would say, "Did I not the get the job because of my colour?",
when demonstrably this is positive discrimination. If it does
have a negative corollary, that is inevitable.
Mr Hain: I think that is a fair
point.
Q68 Lady Hermon: Secretary of State,
may I ask whether you have ever discussed this issue of positive
discrimination in police recruitment with your, regrettably, former
colleague, the Rt Hon Charles Clarke, Home Secretary, who in committee
said he did not approve of positive discrimination? Did you ever
at any stage discuss the recruitment procedure in Northern Ireland
with the then Home Secretary?
Mr Hain: Not in general terms
when I reported to him did we discuss the success of the PSNI,
including the increasing cross-community support, partly because
of this policy.
Q69 Chairman: Secretary of State,
I am grateful to you. We have some interesting things on the record.
I think it would not be an unfair summary to say that you are
fairly confident that you will achieve your desired goal on 24
November. Obviously many people throughout the United Kingdom,
Great Britain and Northern Ireland hope that is the case. I think
there will be some concern with some of the answers you have given,
but obviously people will be able to reflect on those, but we
are grateful to you for the frankness with which you have sought
to answer the questions. It is the duty of this Committee to hold
the Government to account.
Mr Hain: Indeed.
Chairman: Therefore, you cannot expect
you will always have an easy ride or agreement from members of
this Committee. At least we have certain things now on the record;
we are grateful. We are grateful too for your agreement to meet
the Committee now privately for a short session, so could I, in
thanking you and your officials, now ask the public to withdraw.
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