Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-92)
RT HON
PETER HAIN
MP, MR JONATHAN
PHILLIPS AND
MR NICK
PERRY
26 OCTOBER 2005
Q80 Mr Fraser: I am in no way criticising
the police. I am asking you whether you are satisfied with the
way things are going and you seem to be telling me that you are.
Mr Hain: Yes; I am.
Chairman: Are you getting cooperation
from the IRA?
Q81 Mr Fraser: That was my next point.
Mr Hain: What is happening in
this police investigation is that extensive progress is being
made and I know that for a fact. I think that there will be arrests
and the investigation will be successful, but it is a very complex,
difficult matter, as are all investigations. I was not seeking
to equate the Northern Bank robbery with the gold bullion one,
except in the sense that it takes time to track down those responsible.
Progress is being made.
Q82 Rosie Cooper: When we were in
Northern Ireland I was actually delighted to hear that the investigation
into the Northern Bank robbery was progressing well and arrests
would be made. My difference with my honourable friend is that
the bit which caused me dismay was the fact that we were told
that the intelligence services had no idea that the Northern Bank
robbery was going to happen. I wonder how that failure can be
explained. I know you will not tell me in detail how you could
make good that deficit, but although I do believe and understand
that the police will be making very speedy progress towards arrest,
my fear is before that. How did we let it happen?
Mr Hain: Some hard questions were
asked and are being asked about that. May I say, against that,
I make decisions almost every other day in response to requests
from the security forces which result in crimes not being committed
and people apprehended and preventive action being taken to stop
murders and crimes. The fact that this went undetected beforehand
is worrying.
Q83 Chairman: You could put it that
way.
Mr Hain: At least the police deserve
our full support for the investigation which they are pursuing
and the determination with which they are doing it.
Chairman: I must bring in Meg Hillier.
She has been exceptionally patient. She wants to ask about the
Victims' Commissioner and we are nearing the end of a very fascinating
session.
Q84 Meg Hillier: Obviously we are
all interested in the appointment of the Victims' Commissioner,
but is her interim status linked to the suspension of the Assembly
or the fact that victims will be involved in a permanent appointment?
Mr Hain: No, it is not linked
to the suspension of the Assembly, but I am glad that you have
raised this matter because it gives me an opportunity to explain
exactly on the record why we have done what we have done. I appointed
an interim commissioner to scope out the work for a permanent
appointment and to do so in close consultation with victims' groups.
I think she is an excellent appointment. She has herself suffered
personal loss—this is Mrs Bertha McDougall—and when
I went with her to launch the appointment on Monday it was very
clear to me, as she faced the paparazzi and the might of the assembled
Northern Ireland media, that she was extremely astute and very,
very sensitive to the concerns across the community divide and
the concerns of the many, many thousands of victims who have suffered
so grievously from death and tragedy. On Monday I met, for example,
a victim who had been blinded in a bomb attack and it was very
moving to hear her account.
Q85 Meg Hillier: You talk about her
looking at the groups which receive government grants. Is she
actually going to be charged with evaluating the effectiveness
of those groups, or is that something a permanent Victims' Commissioner
will do?
Mr Hain: No. If she is able to,
she is to look particularly at the services provided to victims
and the standards which have been set and to advise on how we
can establish a victims' and survivors' forum through which they
can properly be consulted and receive counselling and receive
the sort of support which victims' groups such as the group FACT
(Families Achieving Change Together), which I met in Lisburn on
Monday, provide admirably with enormous energy and dedication.
We want to learn the lessons of that.
Q86 Meg Hillier: In your memorandum
to the Committee you talk about her considering "the modalities
of establishing a Victims' and Survivors' Forum". Perhaps
you could explain what you mean by that, because I am not sure
about the English. Do you have in your mind an expectation of
what that forum will look like, or does she have carte blanche
to set that up herself?
Mr Hain: She has carte blanche
to advise on how we set that up. I look to her in consultation
with victims' groups to do so. She herself has worked in the field
for many years and is highly respected and will do an excellent
job.
Q87 Meg Hillier: Do you envisage
that in due course the permanent position will move to be a statutory
position, appointed on a statutory basis?
Mr Hain: Yes. In that case it
will be subject to the normal public appointments procedures of
open advertisements, application and the best person chosen for
the job.
Q88 Meg Hillier: How long do you
expect it to be before you get to that?
Mr Hain: She has taken on the
job for about a year. I do not want to be more precise than that,
because if she reports in under a year that is to be welcomed;
if it flows over a bit to do a proper job, that is fine by me.
Q89 Meg Hillier: May I ask a couple
of quick questions on the review of public administration? Could
you give us the timeline for Northern Ireland Office decisions
on the review of public administration which has been going on
really since October 2003? We are two years in and have made some
progress.
Mr Hain: I intend to announce
where we are going after this extensive period of consultation
and you are absolutely right that it has been extensive. One thing
people in Northern Ireland do not suffer from is a lack of consultation.
We will then probably announce the outcome on 22 November. May
I just make one brief point and that is that Northern Ireland
is desperately in need of public service reform. There are 26
councils, there are 18 health trusts, there are four health authorities,
there are five education library boards and around 100 quangos.
It is very over-administered and I want to transfer service resources
from bureaucracy and back-room work to the frontline. This will
help us do that and we shall be putting forward some radical proposals
based on the consultation, recommended through the consultation,
which will take Northern Ireland forward into a sustainable public
service for the future.
Q90 Meg Hillier: Have you liaised
at all with colleagues at the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
about the pitfalls of different reorganisations in England, some
of which have been debated quite recently? Do you think there
is going to be an impact on the reinstatement of the Assembly
of having more powerful local government, given that we now have
108 Members of the Assembly all drawing their salary and allowances
but not meeting, who all want to see it back in place. Do you
think there is going to be any impact of moving the timescale
for renewed local government on the role and function of the Assembly?
Mr Hain: I hope not, because I
think there is a consensus that we need to reduce the number of
councils. There is an argument about exactly what number you reduce
it to. After all we have 26 local councils covering a population
of 1.7 to 1.8 million; it is a very large number of councils for
that size of population. There is a consensus on reducing the
number and a consensus on having more powerful local councils
and devolving some of the policies and delivery out to the local
level from the centre.
Q91 Chairman: This is a subject to
which we shall return. Before concluding, may I ask whether you
are willing for us to publish this document you sent us yesterday?
Mr Hain: Yes; of course. It is
for the record.
Q92 Chairman: Thank you very much
indeed. We are very grateful to you, Secretary of State. You have
answered our questions with good humour. I know that we all wish
you well in your difficult task, although there will inevitably
be issues on which we shall wish to probe you very, very much.
I do hope that you will give a little thought to pre-legislative
scrutiny, whenever it can be applied and specifically to the issue
which came up this afternoon and not entirely shut your mind to
that. Thank you and your officials for coming and thank you for
fielding all our questions. We look forward to the next session
with you.
Mr Hain: Thank you. I look forward
to being grilled by you in the future, working with you and to
your reports.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
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