Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180
- 199)
WEDNESDAY 14 DECEMBER 2005
ANGELA E SMITH
MP, MR DAVID
WOODS AND
MS JACQUI
MCLAUGHLIN
Q180 Chairman: You say you have taken
account of views but one of the complaints which was made to us,
and they were not all from the same quarter, was that people had
not been given sufficient opportunity to express their views either
to you or to your predecessor. There was certainly a feeling which
was particularly evident when the grammar school representatives
gave evidence, that they were very grateful to us and relieved
that they were at last able to give this evidence which they felt
they had not had the opportunity to give to your predecessors.
Angela Smith: That is probably
an unfair criticism, but I accept that if people do not feel somebody
agrees with them, they feel they have not been heard. I had numerous
meetings with all shades of opinion on this issue. There was extensive
consultation and my predecessors also met with different shades
of opinion. I was just checking how many meetings and opportunities
there had been for members of the public with differing views
to put their views to ministers. In fact, the organisations representing
the grammar school lobby had approaching twice as many meetings
with ministers as those with the opposing point of view. It is
difficult for people. They see a bit of change, and there has
been some misunderstanding and indeed some misrepresentation
of the Government's views on which people have based their opinions
and representations following that. I can give you an assurance
that every shade of opinion has had the opportunity to meet with
ministers, myself and my colleagues in this post previously. All
those meetings have been very worthwhile for ministers.
Q181 Chairman: In the rest of the
United Kingdom, where there has been a suggestion that a grammar
school might be closed, this Government, your Government, has
provided the facility for a local ballot of parents. There is
no such facility provided in the proposals which you are putting
forward in Northern Ireland.
Angela Smith: Because there is
no proposal to close grammar schools. If you look at the proposals
in detail, it is important to stress that what we are not seeking
to do is remove academic excellence, close grammar schools. What
we are trying to do is to have a better method of transferring
pupils from their primary school to their post-primary school,
but also have a curriculum which is more flexible and better meets
the needs of those young people. Indeed, if the curriculum is
more flexible so for grammar schools it is also more flexible.
At the moment every single post-primary school in Northern Ireland
has the same curriculum, taught in the same way, at the same level.
Our proposals have more flexibility but no grammar schools will
be closed as a result of these proposals, which is why there will
be no need for ballots.
Chairman: I am sure we shall be returning
to that.
Q182 Sammy Wilson: May I follow up
on the general approach first of all? Just for the record, it
ought to be pointed out that, whilst you say there was a very
low response rate to the original survey, over 250,000 households
did respond; it was the highest response rate for any survey carried
out by the then Northern Ireland Assembly, in fact it was five
times higher than the response rate for any of the consultations
by any government department taken during the life of the Assembly.
Just for the record. In relation to the consultation, 62% of the
people opposed the proposals in the household survey, 90% have
registered their opposition in the most recent survey. You are
now going to have a consultation on this document here. Given
the form in which this document is now written and the fairly
finalised way in which the Order has been drafted up, in reality
what chance is there of any changes being made in a document which
reaches this kind of form at this stage of the process?
Angela Smith: That is a matter
for the parliamentary process. When you talk about percentages
of responses, some of the information we get is contradictory.
I saw one poll recently which said that roughly two thirds of
people were opposed to removing academic selection; the figures
change from 90% to 50% to 65%, they vary enormously depending
on the question which is asked. The same survey showed that slightly
more than that, though roughly two thirds again, wanted children
to go to their local school and be streamed according to ability
within the local school. There are some contradictory results.
In terms of the draft Order, the removal of academic selection
was accepted back when Jane Kennedy accepted the Costello report
and it is looking at how to give effect to that with two objectives
in mind: one to ensure that we retain academic excellence and
opportunities; the other to ensure that every child fulfils its
full potential and every child is challenged by the education
system. I have seen some things recently; I met yesterday with
two groups, both of them dealing with young people who had disengaged
from the education system. One of the reasons both of them gave
me without any prompting, because I wanted to explore why they
felt young people were disengaging, was that a very large part
of it was the curriculum. All young people are doing the same
curriculum in the same way and it did not meet their needs, it
did not challenge those young people, it did not address their
needs. The proposals we are putting forward are to address that
within the curriculum, so that every young person has the ability
to be challenged by the curriculum they are studying, so that
mix of academic and vocational courses can be offered in every
school to every child, so that does mean we get a better outcome
and fulfil the potential of every pupil going through school.
Q183 Sammy Wilson: You mentioned
that one of the reasons why this was being done now, even though
it should be a devolved issue, was that there was a pressing urgency.
Is it also not a fact that you know, and those within your Department
who are probably pushing this know, that had these kinds of proposals
come to the Northern Ireland Assembly, given the way in which
decisions have been made in the Northern Ireland Assembly, there
would be absolutely no chance of them ever going through in their
present form. Therefore they are being pushed, ahead of an Assembly
being formed, because it is known that they could not possibly
go through in this form with an Assembly.
Angela Smith: I refute that. The
timetable we are following is the timetable which was set out
when Costello was first published in which the last transfer tests
would take place in 2008 and the new arrangements would come into
force in 2009. There has been no haste in this and I do not think
you or I would have imagined that I should be Minister for Education
and not you. No one would have imagined that there would still
be a devolved administration now. There has been no haste on the
part of the Department; we have followed the timetable which was
first set down by Costello.
Q184 Chairman: I do not think that
was Mr Wilson's point. Mr Wilson's point was that he did not think
the Assembly would ever countenance such measures going through
onto the statute book.
Angela Smith: I was making two
points and I was going to come to that second point. The first
point was that we were acting in haste and I was pointing out
that we were not acting in haste. The second point would be a
matter for the Assembly and I would not predict what the Assembly
would do. During this debate I have had the advantage of looking
at this in some detail and I have to say that the debate has taken
place in the same amount of detail in Northern Ireland as a whole
and if there is a misunderstanding, which may be the fault of
the Department and me, some of it has been misrepresentation.
I notice in the evidence you were given previously about the pupil
profiles some of the information being given to the Committee
is that pupil profiles are completed by the pupils. I made a note
of the comment which was made to members before that the child
set its own work in the pupil profile. That is not true. This
is something undertaken by professional teachers with computer
assessment tools to assist them. There has been some misrepresentation
of what is actually involved. It is very important that we look
at this debate in context with all the issues which are facing
us and not just one small aspect of it. I would not want to predict
what the Assembly will do in those circumstances.
Q185 Lady Hermon: I am delighted
to see you here this afternoon Minister, along with your colleagues.
May I just reflect on one point which you have already made in
your submission to us this afternoon and that is to indicate that
the representatives of the grammar schools have actually met on
twice as many occasions as other groups? Could the Minister just
clarify that? How many times has the Minister met with the heads
of grammar schools? How many times has her predecessor met with
the heads of grammar schools?
Angela Smith: We have both had
a number of meetings. I and my predecessor met with the GBA on
nine[1]
occasions, with the Secondary Heads of Northern Ireland on two
occasions, and the CGSFPA on one occasion, so a total of 13 meetings.
If we look at the meetings with those who are promoting and supporting
the Costello changes, the CCMS, the AHTSS, the NASUWT, a total
of six meetings, exactly twice the number of meetings with those
promoting the changes. I am not sure the number of meetings on
its own is necessarily helpful. The point I was making was that
we did not deny anybody the opportunity to speak to me, we made
the opportunities. We wanted to ensure that we got a complete
understanding of the opinions being put to us and the GBA were
certainly putting the views of the grammar school heads very well.
Q186 Mr Campbell: You have given
the indication of how many meetings took place. Surely the meetings
would be in response to requests for meetings. Would it be the
case that there was an intensity of requests for meetings from
one side?
Angela Smith: Not always. One
of the things I did when I became Minister for Education was to
ask for meetings with various groups. It would be very difficult
for me to say which ones were in response to requests, but as
we moved through the process, I asked my officials to ensure that
I met representatives whether or not they had written in as well,
I specifically asked to meet representatives of every shade of
opinion.
Q187 Chairman: In view of the comments
we had when we were in Northern Ireland and because the Committee
wishes really to see the facts, do not delay this particular point
now, but could you please write to us, detail the meetings, the
length of time each one took, whether it was at your invitation
or by request and those who attended the meetings? Then we can
get a balanced view as to exactly what happened.
Angela Smith: It may be a little
bit more difficult. I can give you the time the meeting was scheduled
but they often overran. We will give as much information as we
can to you along the lines you are seeking.
Chairman: That would be extremely kind.
Q188 Rosie Cooper: My honourable
friend from Antrim East was suggesting that this decision would
never have been made by the Assembly, or was unlikely to be made
by the Assembly. I should just like to explore that. How much
do 45,000 empty school places cost and who is paying for that?
I suppose the nub of my question is: how long could a Northern
Ireland Assembly sustain those costs into the future?
Angela Smith: How much does it
cost? It is difficult to say in financial terms; it does have
an impact on the budget. I should say that this is not driven
by the surplus places issue. I know Committee members are aware
of the degree of surplus places in Northern Ireland schools and
how that is escalating; if nothing is done it will go up to 80,000
in the next 10 years. That does not drive this at all; it has
to be seen in context. In Belfast alone there are 8,500 empty
desks in primary schools. I was at a primary school last week
and I left feeling quite upset after speaking to a head who is
doing what I think is an extremely good job in extremely difficult
circumstances, yet because his numbers are falling his budget
is under significant pressure. The amount of extra money he has
per pupil in his school is 11%, but because of the way the numbers
have reduced in the school, that has not particularly helped him
balance his budget; falling rolls do have a significant impact
on school budgets in Northern Ireland. Unless something is done
to address the issue of surplus places, it will get worse and
action is being taken. This is a similar context, but it is not
the driver for the changes.
Q189 Rosie Cooper: I understand that
this is not driven by costs and wanting to do that, but I was
really addressing the point of my honourable friend for East Antrim.
I suppose I am saying that at some point the Assembly would have
competing priorities and in the future costs would become a very
pressing point.
Angela Smith: It would. One of
the demands which is often made on me as Minister is to increase
the amount of money spent on education. We are continually increasing
the amount of money spent on education, but I am not convinced
that we are getting the best value for that money. We are changing
a very bureaucratic structure and you may have some knowledge
of the review of public administration which is addressing this.
We currently have five Education and Library Boards and we shall
be replacing them with one education authority. There is no doubt
that it is a significant pressure on schools and would have to
be addressed by whoever was the Minister.
Chairman: May I bring in Meg Hillier?
You will see that this Committee neither sits nor talks in party
terms, which is very refreshing.
Q190 Meg Hillier: Thank you Minister
for coming; we had some interesting debates about the subject
in Northern Ireland and a lot of interesting submissions. I want
to focus on the issue which my honourable friend has raised about
pupil numbers and the falling rolls. You have said that it is
not a driver. Would you not agree with us though that it is a
major factor in pressing for change in schools in Northern Ireland?
Angela Smith: It has to be, in
that we have to look at the school provision because it has financial
consequences and it also has educational consequences. If schools
are not sustainable in the longer term, then there are educational
consequences for the younger children in that school. At the moment
it is most evident in primary schools, although it is feeding
into post-primary schools. I have issues in front of me at the
moment, which we shall no doubt touch on in the course of this,
as regards integrated education where there will be a demand for
a new school but the number of surplus places in existing schools
will be extremely high. It brings into play a number of different
pressures, financial and educational.
Q191 Meg Hillier: In a sense it seems
to me, as a relative outsider to the Northern Ireland situation
until recently, that the falling roll forces physical change.
We have heard about schools being forced to merge, doing it ad
hoc. We have heard about some success stories. You have talked
today particularly underlining the number of surplus places and
the pressures for new schools, integrated and other. If you take
on board all the issues around the choice of 27 subjects at GCSE
level and 24 at A level, does this not all force a physical change
to make sure that the demographics, the subject range and the
ability issues are all dealt with? Yet you say that is not a driver.
I was just wondering whether you could explain that.
Angela Smith: It was not a driver
behind Costello. I was not in Northern Ireland at the time of
Costello, it was set up prior to my being Minister for Education
in Northern Ireland, but the drive behind Costello was how best
to meet the needs of the 21st century and looking at whether transfer
tests were the best way of having children move from primary to
secondary school. In terms of the change, you are right that there
is a huge change programme in education in Northern Ireland. It
is massive in terms of the RPA and Costello and there is a very,
very significant issue in the falling rolls. Coupled with that
is the kind of infrastructure we have in schools. I visited a
school last week and was quite appalled at the standard of the
school and the work which needed to be done. I shall be announcing
fairly shortly, hopefully in a matter of weeks, a new capital
programme for schools and that is an opportunity to address some
of these issues. The Queen opened a new school in Northern Ireland
last week, Downshire School, which is an amalgamation of two schools.
What we have now is a brand new school which is sustainable in
the long term as a primary school, but also has adult education
facilities within the school and a mother and toddler group. It
is very much a community based school at a brand new school. When
I have to close schools in a community—and I have had to
do so now on two or three occasions—I have to understand
the very detrimental impact it has on the local community. When
a school has been allowed to get to such low numbers that the
only option is to close that school, I feel extremely sad about
that and I do recognise, and members here have made representations
to me on those particular issues for those particular schools,
how damaging it is to the community. That is why, if we can do
some forward planning and look ahead at what the needs are for
the future, address the issue of falling rolls in the longer term
and have schools which are fit for purpose and sustainable in
the longer term, we do start to address these issues in a much
more effective way.
Q192 Meg Hillier: You have highlighted
some of the big issues about falling rolls. Why is it that it
has not been fully addressed before now, or is that an unfair
assumption?
Angela Smith: You would have to
ask others not me. I was quite shocked at the marked decline in
school rolls. It is difficult across five Education and Library
Boards. I have had different responses to this particular point,
but I was speaking to one head teacher and he was keen to amalgamate
his school with another school which was across an Education and
Library Board boundary and, for various reasons, it became impossible
to amalgamate the two schools and that school is now in a very
difficult position. The Department's role and the role of the
Minister has been to make an assessment of development proposals
which have been brought forward by the Education and Library Boards
and CCMS would also do it within the Catholic sector. I am not
convinced that the examination of this has been as robust as it
should have been within the Education and Library Board sector.
Q193 Sammy Wilson: You have talked
about the problem of falling school rolls and surplus places and
everyone in Northern Ireland accepts that, though you are saying
that is not what is predicating this document. Is there then a
contradiction in the approach of your department which is committed
to growing the Irish medium and the integrated school sectors
by 10% each year against a background where you are saying you
already have 45,000 surplus school places? How do you explain
to those schools which are going to be closed how in some circumstances
you will be opening a new school in the exact same area because
of your Department's policy?
Angela Smith: It is not just departmental
policy it is legislation which has been put forward. I do not
recognise the target of 10% which you gave; I am aware of no targets.
Under the 1998 legislation we have to encourage and facilitate
Irish medium and integrated education. It does create a huge challenge
to me as Minister. If a proposal comes forward to me, and I understand
that a proposal will shortly be coming forward to me, for an integrated
school, a post-primary school in an area where in that wider area
there are 750 surplus places, I have legislation which says I
should encourage and facilitate. I have 750 surplus places. To
build a new school has capital implications and it also has revenue
implications. I have had representations from the principals and
two of the MPs in that area supporting the local schools who are
worried about losing further pupils. On the other hand I speak
to a parent on the margins of another event—the parent was
not making representations, but he was from that area—and
the parent tells me that he particularly wants his child to go
to an integrated school. I have to ask: why is it, when there
are 750 surplus places, that parent does not want to send his
child to any one of the schools with surplus places? At the moment
the integrated primary school has two[2]
places vacant. That is one of the dilemmas in decision making.
As the Minister making that decision, I have to take into account
the surplus places available and that is part of the decision-making
process. It is not quite as you would indicate; it is not that
we have a target and we have to create 10% in some sectors, but
it does have to be taken into account. If we are also looking
at parental choice, the parental choice is that they want another
integrated school in that area, there is a demand for it. At the
same time there is an excess of places in that area. One of the
ways to deal with that is to have more cooperation between schools
and schools across sectors. There are schools which do that. I
made a note of two in particular. There are two schools across
the controlled and maintained sector which are doing some A levels
jointly in the sixth form. That kind of cooperation can assist
with that, but the problem is that it is not happening everywhere
and it is not really happening enough.
Q194 Chairman: The commonsense, cost-effective
answer would often be to encourage the existing to integrate rather
than to close and build something fresh. Is this not something
you try to encourage?
Angela Smith: At the moment that
responsibility is not with me as Minister. Under the new RPA arrangements
that may be easier to do. One of the things that an integrated
school proposal would have to look at, would be whether there
was another school in the area which wished to become integrated.
Sometimes that is not possible because the threshold which is
set for a school to change from one sector to being integrated
is not the same religious balance as a new integrated school.
Some parents prefer a new integrated school, because there is
more of an equal balance than in a school which converts or transfers
to become an integrated school. It is one of the complexities
we have in the education system which makes decision making and
funding more difficult. I do not have all the answers on that;
I just get some of the problems.
Q195 Lady Hermon: I am increasingly
concerned about the issue of falling pupil numbers being used
as an excuse to slow down announcements about capital expenditure.
I shall give you an example: Bangor Academy, which will be the
largest new build at secondary level in the North Down constituency.
It is not a school which suffers from falling roll numbers and
yet and all the announcement to go ahead with that expenditure
has not been confirmed by your Department. That has a serious
knock-on effect for the staff, for the pupils, for the board of
governors. Will the Minister indicate to the Committee this afternoon
when she is prepared to make an announcement about capital expenditure?
Angela Smith: I would hope to
make an announcement in the fairly near future. It is a bit unfair
to say that it is being used as an excuse to delay the announcement
of the capital programme. What I do have to ensure, if I am announcing
a major capital programme for the building of new schools and
significant refurbishment of others, is that I am able to stand
over that and say those are the schools we all want in 10 years'
time, in 15 years' time. I would be heavily criticised by various
committees and Members of Parliament, if I were to announce a
capital programme which included schools which were not sustainable
in the longer term because of falling rolls. There is no attempt
to slow down the capital programme using falling rolls as an excuse,
but it does have to be a factor in the sustainability of any schools.
May I just share my thoughts with you on this, which are not particularly
public at the moment? What I should like to do is perhaps look
at a two-stage announcement, where those schools which are quite
clearly sustainable in the longer term and need to go ahead fairly
soon can be moved forward and then some additional work done on
looking at the long-term sustainability. If we can look at the
capital programme in terms of falling rolls and where new schools
could be built, and rather than seeing a community extremely upset
about losing a school, a community being delighted at having a
new school and amalgamate two or three schools, there may be opportunities
there. I may have the opportunity to make a capital programme
announcement in two stages. I should apologise to those schools
which have been waiting, but this is a very difficult area and
I do not think it would be right to have a short-term programme
when there is a long-term issue to be addressed.
Q196 Lady Hermon: When do you hope
to make the first of these announcements?
Angela Smith: I should like to
do so shortly after Christmas.
Q197 Mr Campbell: On the business
of encouraging and facilitating in relation to Irish medium, would
you think it could be helpful, if it were to be the case in future,
where there are schools—and I can think of one at least
in my constituency, a very small maintained school—which
are under threat of closure, that encouraging and facilitating
towards integration as an alternative to closure might be equally
productive and acceptable if that were enshrined in legislation
and you were able to deploy equal facilitation in that regard?
Angela Smith: Normally when integrated
schools bring forward a proposal to a Minister they would have
to show that they had looked at that area of it. I should welcome
any legislation which would make my life easier.
Chairman: Maybe the Committee should
offer some suggestions.
Q198 Meg Hillier: One thing I did
not quite get in on was where integrated schools fit in the future.
At the moment we have integrated, Irish medium, Catholic-controlled,
grammar schools, in summary. You are also proposing academic and
all the other secondary schools would be perhaps slightly different,
perhaps overlapping with specialist. Where do you see integrated
schools? Do you see them overlapping? How do you see them fitting
into those types of schools?
Angela Smith: Any of the post-primary
schools could apply for specialist school status. That was not
just the maintained or controlled sector, Irish medium or integrated,
all of them could apply for that. There was a mixture of applications.
We have had the first sift and I hope to announce 10 new specialist
schools. Thirteen have been short-listed; a mixture of controlled
secondary, maintained secondary, integrated, maintained grammar
and controlled grammar. One of the controlled grammar schools
has now pulled out because it is working on so many other initiatives
and does not wish to be considered at this stage. A mix of those
schools with the various specialisms applied for that status and
they were assessed on the quality of their applications and we
would hope to be make a final announcement on those in the not
too distant future.
Q199 Mr Fraser: You claim that your
proposals will enable every child to reach the maximum of their
potential. That is correct, is it not?
Angela Smith: Yes.
1 Correction from Minister, ten Back
2
Correction from Minister, ten Back
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