Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260
- 266)
WEDNESDAY 14 DECEMBER 2005
ANGELA E SMITH
MP, MR DAVID
WOODS AND
MS JACQUI
MCLAUGHLIN
Q260 Chairman: Do you recognise that
there will always be some children for whom a special school is
the only sensible option?
Angela Smith: Yes; both for them
and in some cases the staff and other children.
Q261 Dr McDonnell: Is there some
mechanism in the new system which you intend or are working hard
at whereby children with special needs can get some more resource,
some more attention? I am thinking particularly of the twilight
zone; I am thinking of Asperger's syndrome; I am thinking of AD/HD.
It is my experience that a lot of this ultimately feeds a frustration
through adolescent years and ultimately may very well feed into
some of our youth suicides. Speaking to the parents of children
who fall into those categories, it does not appear to be well
looked after. Could we ask you perhaps whether there is some mechanism
for an improved system, an improved interface between education
and health on that? I feel that the split responsibility ends
up with nobody responsible.
Angela Smith: Having been a Health
Minister prior to being the Minister for Education, I am acutely
aware of that issue. One of the things we want to ensure in the
children and young people's package which I mentioned earlier
is better linkages between health and education and working across
departments. There is additional money. Even though we are seeing
pupil numbers falling we are putting additional money into special
educational needs; in the current budget an extra £5 million
and £15 million. I put extra money in when I announced my
amendment to the budget last year. Yes, it is partly financially
led and we need to put in additional money, which we are doing,
but the other side of it is better joined-up working between departments.
There is an anomaly here sometimes where you have a decision made
by the Department of Education about what the needs are and the
provision has to be delivered by the Department of Health. I also
think there are complexities in having five Education and Library
Boards delivering that. We have five Education and Library Boards
with five different policies on special educational needs and
I do not think that is the best way to address the problem.
Q262 Sammy Wilson: You have indicated
the benefits of the collaboration between schools. We took some
evidence on it last week and there were several concerns. The
first concern was about timetabling. The evidence we had from
St Catherine's College was "We have a three-way system going
. . . It puts constraints on us, obviously. The timetabling demands
a lot of liaison. It is possible and it is feasible and in the
last number of years we have expanded that further". Under
further questioning it turned out that about 25 pupils were involved
in that. If having 25 pupils in a school puts pressure on the
timetable and the timetabling arrangements, how do you envisage
a smooth working of a system which requires the whole of the sixth
form to move around and this between schools which are close together?
Angela Smith: It is one of those
areas where we have to ensure that every young person gets access
to a wider curriculum. If you look at the size of schools, you
have some schools which are offering a handful of A levels; I
can think of one school which only offered one A level. In terms
of providing opportunities for young people, we cannot do that
and that is why collaboration is so important. It does involve
complexities in the timetabling; I fully appreciate that. It does
not necessarily mean additional costs go with that and the sharing
of resources can also help. The pilot for the vocational enhancement
programme with 11,500 pupils involved in that shows how it can
work and it will be for individual schools to look at how it can
work. You may be aware of the case in one area, Cross and Passion
College and Ballycastle High School, where post 16 you have two
schools across both communities jointly doing their A levels.
That seems to me to be the model of the kind of education system
we want to see and I congratulate both those schools on being
able to do that. It does present challenges, it presents new ways
of working, but it does not necessarily mean, as some people have
said, that you put the kids in a bus and bus them to the other
side of town. It may be that teachers' timetables are altered,
it may be that we encourage teachers, we may do more interactive
learning with young people, but I really do not think we can disadvantage
particularly young people in rural areas and not offer them the
same kind of opportunities in the curriculum as we can offer those
in urban areas. It will require new ways of working. I have spoken
to a number of heads who said that it was challenging but they
are going to make it work. I am very confident that the determination
to offer those opportunities will ensure it does. We are not going
to say on day one that they have to offer this. We shall work
with schools who find it difficult and ensure that we give them
the support they need.
Q263 Sammy Wilson: It is significantly
going to happen where schools are together. When we visited St
Gabriel's, a small secondary school, I spoke to the head and asked
about arrangements for cooperation in North Belfast. There can
be different difficulties. He pointed out that collaboration in
North Belfast, with youngsters moving across four or five dividing
lines to get to the next school where there could be collaboration,
really is just not feasible.
Angela Smith: It may not be the
youngsters; it may be the teachers who are moving. I really do
not think we can say that because there are difficulties we cannot
offer the same kind of curriculum. We already have a number of
small schools which are offering 10 A levels, so some schools
are finding ways of doing that already. It may not be appreciated
by the entire Committee, but the number of schools which have
fewer than 300 pupils is very large in Northern Ireland and yet
Saint Gabriel's has 197 pupils and they are already offering 14
GCSE subjects, so they have gone a long way towards meeting the
needs already. There will be ways in which they can work with
other schools locally to offer a wider range of subjects to young
people.
Q264 Sammy Wilson: On the results
so far where you have these collaborative ventures, have you had
any indication as to how the results in those cases compare with
the results of youngsters who are taught within the one school?
Angela Smith: I do not have figures,
but I can try to get some more information on that for you.
Sammy Wilson: Just if there is anecdotal
evidence.
Q265 Chairman: That would be helpful.
Angela Smith: It may be a bit
too soon to get that, but as soon as something is available.
Q266 Chairman: We shall write to
you on that. We shall also be writing to you about the entitlement
framework because I should like rather a detailed answer there
and I think the Committee would. We are running out of time and
all colleagues have had the chance to ask you questions so may
I thank you for the good humoured and honest way in which you
have sought to answer them. You have taken on a major responsibility
and you are going to be passing on a number of incomplete files
to your successors, who will take over when devolved government
is restored. Your commitment is quite clear and we shall be reflecting
on your answers. We may well wish to follow up by correspondence
on some of these points.
Angela Smith: Thank you. May I
thank you for the opportunity to meet the Committee today? One
of the things which I hope I have highlighted is that this is
a very wide subject and I should be grateful for the opportunity
to come back to members on any issues they are concerned about.
One of the things which struck me when I first looked at this
was that I was being presented with what appeared to be quite
a small issue on academic selection, but it is actually much wider
and has the potential to give enormous benefits to Northern Ireland.
I shall be happy to come back on any questions members may have.
Chairman: We are very grateful for that.
We should like you, if you would, just to stay for a moment or
two privately with the Committee but may I publicly wish you a
very happy Christmas, a good New Year and hope that you might
be passing on your responsibilities during that new year and I
think that is what you hope too. I declare the public session
closed.
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