Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-56)
CBI AND FSB NORTHERN
IRELAND
1 FEBRUARY 2006
Q40 Mr Fraser: You mentioned the
big organisations—Tesco, et cetera—because of the
sheer size of the organisation they are able to say no, but with
all respect both organisations represented here are large organisations,
national organisations. Are you saying that you need to be empowered
so that all your members, by membership, are able to say, "We
say no"? Is that the point you are trying to make?
Mr Roberts: Obviously in a perfect
world we would give advice and say, "Don't pay" but
we are not in their shoes, we are not there when these individuals
come and ask for donations. The fact that we are here today, the
fact that we have spoken in public on numerous occasions about
this in terms of every aspect of crime and have produced a broader
report.
Chairman: You are very eloquently making
your point this afternoon.
Q41 Dr McDonnell: I would like to
dwell on some of the points you have made but time does not permit
that. I want to mention the Organised Crime Task Force. I was
picking up that the FSB were fairly critical of the approach taken
by Government to tackle organised crime and it argues that politicians
and government are aware of the geographical areas where such
activity takes place but choose not to tackle it, whereas the
CBI on the other hand appears to welcome the strategic approach
of the Organised Crime Task Force and the work undertaken, emphasising
the need for sufficient resources et cetera. The FSB claim
that the Government is ignoring the problem; what steps do you
think the Government ought to be taking?
Mr Mitchell: I think, as I said
earlier, a lot of evidence that we are hearing today has been
out there for some time and the Government has been aware of it.
We consider there have been no serious attempts to fully address
the matter.
Q42 Dr McDonnell: Why?
Mr Mitchell: That is what we would
like to know. We are concentrating on businesses so it is the
Government who need to answer that question.
Mr Roberts: We do give credit
where credit is due in terms of the Organised Crime Task Force.
They have had initial successes. They have been very successful
in tackling the godfathers, if you like, but what we want is for
them to concentrate on the ground troops, so to speak, of the
paramilitary organisations. We are also now involved with the
Organised Crime Task Force in an advisory capacity; the CBI, the
FSB and the Chamber of Commerce are now part of the Organised
Crime Task Force in terms of advisory. We will keep our eye on
the ball. It is one of our core objectives and we will not rest
until this issue is addressed, and there is light shone on this
particular problem. It is fine confiscating the assets of the
godfathers but we need to get down to the grass roots. If there
is one point that we want to make today, it is that.
Mr Mitchell: There needs to be
a clear strategy and then at least monitoring how effective they
are at implementing this strategy. That has not been happening
to date.
Q43 Dr McDonnell: Would you care
to comment on the effectiveness of the multi-agency approach that
has been adopted by the Organised Crime Task Force? It is pulling
together various agencies; how can the joint working there be
improved?
Mr Smyth: It is early days but
one needs to read the annual report from the Organised Crime Task
Force; it does give you some confidence that there is a lot of
activity happening out there. There are certainly some resource
issues. Certainly from our respects it is maybe not the priority
that it would take if I look at the policing plans. In terms of
the Asset Recovery Agency we believe it should have a more pro-active
approach; it seems only to come into play at the last resort.
We are maybe looking at the Republic there is a more pro-active
approach out there on the back of that. It is quite clear that
there is a sort of educational role in getting the community on
board and educating them about the damage this is doing, so probably
more effort and resource could be put into that too. It is a very
complex, difficult area and there is a lot of work and effort
going in to try to address it but it is not easy.
Mr Roberts: The Organised Crime
Task Force has brought together all the main agencies responsible
for this and that coordination can only be a good thing. I think
that they themselves recognise that. I think they recognised as
well that the business community themselves, as we have demonstrated
today, have a particular view on this and that is why we are now
in an advisory capacity with the Organised Crime Task Force. We
will ensure that our analysis, our views and the views of these
grass roots small business owners will be heard loud and clear
by the Organised Crime Task Force.
Q44 Mr Grogan: Just to follow up
a point that Mr Smyth made earlier, you were beginning to make
a comparison between the work of the Assets Recovery Agency and
also the Criminal Assets Bureau. I think you were implying that
one was more pro-active than the other.
Mr Smyth: From feedback that I
have received from members is that CAB in the south appears to
be more pro-active. The ARA in Northern Ireland appears to just
come in at the last resort when every other channel has been gone
through. Our view there is, could they not have a more pro-active
approach? I do not know how they are instructed or whether they
are hamstrung or not in terms of what they are doing there. They
have certainly made some inroads with some success but it is probably
fairly limited compared to what we are actually looking at.
Q45 Chairman: You think they are
more effective in the south than in the north.
Mr Smyth: Certainly they have
been established longer. I do not know the technicalities of the
rules and regulations and what their strategy is, but certainly
from some comments coming back to me the CAB appears to be having
more effect, they seem to be out there more pro-actively.
Q46 Mr Grogan: What about cooperation
between the Customs and the PSNI, is that good in your experience?
Do they work together?
Mr Smyth: It is good and it certainly
has improved in recent years. The HMRC tend to take a lead in
this and the PSNI tend to come back only when they are having
raids. I do believe that cooperation there is good.
Q47 Mr Fraser: Do you agree with
the IMC's observations about local councils and the courts being
fully brought into the system in terms of their roles in tackling
organised crime?
Mr Roberts: I think we are here
primarily talking about our own submission and I think we have
a big enough job getting our message across and articulating what
we have said in our submission without perhaps getting on to what
the IMC are doing. As I said, we are very careful not to get caught
in a political crossfire; we want to see this issue addressed.
We want to see crime, we want to see paramilitary extortion and
racketeering made a top priority. It should not be dragged into
politics. We know what the problem is; let us try in terms of
bringing all the agencies together in a united response in tackling
this.
Q48 Sammy Wilson: There was one issue
that was raised at the end of your list and that was about immigration
crime. You mentioned perhaps that it is not a big issue but it
is an increasing one. The Government in the Asylum and Immigration
Act is going to place the onus or asking for greater onus to be
placed on employers to do checks on those who they employ to ensure
that they are legitimately in the country and have work permits
et cetera which will be a big way of tackling some of this
crime. There has been some opposition to it but I would just like
to hear the views of your both your organisations as to how you
believe that will impact on your members and would you welcome
checks at that low level as a way of combating this crime?
Mr Smyth: I am going to dodge
that one to some degree. I know the CBI have been working on this;
it is not something I am familiar with. Clearly from an employer's
representative any additional regulation on a business is a concern
but there is a recognition that employers have a role and responsibility
here. I am afraid I am not in a position to respond; I am not
aware of the details of what is on the back of that. I am willing
to come back if necessary and put in a short submission.
Q49 Chairman: That would be an easy
way to deal with that, yes.
Mr Mitchell: There are terms of
employment where people have to be registered and meet certain
criteria and they are asked for photographs and things like that
to identify them and to be sure about responsibility and qualifications.
We welcome that.
Q50 Sammy Wilson: A number of us
probably receive lobby letters lobbying against that provision.
It seems an eminently sensible provision because it is a way of
checking at employer level as to whether or not people are being
drawn into the country illegally and even being brought in as
part of organised gangs. I really just wanted to hear the views
of yourselves.
Mr Mitchell: What we have heard
so far we have supported.
Q51 Chairman: You can certainly add
to that. We are at the beginning of this inquiry. We shall make
our report to Parliament in due course, probably May/June time,
and our report will obviously contain a number of recommendations.
If your wishes were fulfilled would you like to tell us what in
particular you hope that we would recommend that would make life
a little easier for your respective members?
Mr Roberts: I think that we have
put forward three or four main ideas that we would like to see
put forward. As we have said it is perhaps to get the recognition
out there from decision makers, from Government about the impact
that this is having on a vital part of our economy in Northern
Ireland: 99% of all businesses in Northern Ireland are small and
this is a critical burden upon small business owners. If we get
that recognition of the pressures on these business owners on
the ground and an awareness of their problems and a commitment
at every level to tackle this, then I think from the point of
view of the FSB we would be very happy.
Mr Mitchell: We would clearly
like to see Government demonstrating a lead role and seeing something
happen.
Mr Smyth: We would be looking
for resources, to make sure that this is a priority; pro-activity
on the ground and educational campaigns to educate the community
and get the community on side to recognise the damage that this
is doing to the fabric of society. A culture has been created
out there and that culture takes some effort to change.
Q52 Chairman: If your equivalent
in the rest of the United Kingdom were giving evidence to a committee
looking at crime in England or Scotland or Wales or indeed all
three, and you were talking about burglary and breaking into shops
and things, there is one word that would keep cropping up and
that word is "drugs". Is there a significant element
of that in crime in Northern Ireland that affects your members
or not?
Mr Smyth: I suppose it indirectly
affects our members if people are off sick and absent and various
things. I think it would be fair to say that the level of drugs
in Northern Ireland has been increasing but coming from a relatively
low level. Certainly the problem is getting worse.
Q53 Chairman: Crime is not as drug
fuelled as it is elsewhere in the UK?
Mr Smyth: It is certainly on the
increase.
Q54 Chairman: How far do you believe
that the drugs are being peddled by the perpetrators or organised
crime? Is there evidence of that?
Mr Roberts: It would be difficult
for us to come up with figures for that. I understand you are
speaking to the PSNI and I am sure the chief constable and his
officers would be more than helpful in answering that question.
There has been a perception in the past that Northern Ireland
did not have a drugs problem. The fact is that we do have a drugs
problem and that dimension of our problems cannot be ignored.
Q55 Mr Fraser: Are you entering into
information sharing with other organisations world-wide in the
light of international terrorism?
Mr Smyth: We as an organisation
are not. My understanding is that the PSNI and the Organised Crime
Task Force is quite actively involved up there and have participated
in a number of international conferences and meetings in various
things. We have just been invited to participate in the Organised
Task Crime Force in the last few months.
Q56 Chairman: Are there any points
that you would like to make to the Committee before I bring this
session to a close? Do you feel you have been able to say to the
Committee everything you really wanted to say, and the points
you have wanted to make you have been able to make?
Mr Smyth: Yes.
Chairman: Good. We are very grateful
to you. There are bound to be things that will occur to you maybe
even as you listen to some of our other evidence which you may
see on the television. Of course you may want to come and listen
to some and you are welcome to attend. We shall be taking some
evidence in Northern Ireland in March and of course you are welcome
to all those public sessions. If anything does occur to you, please
do not hesitate to contact the clerk. Anything which you say,
before the termination of our inquiry, will be taken carefully
into account. We are grateful to you and I do personally appreciate
that it has not been all that easy for you to be as frank as you
have been, but thank you. Thank you for what you do in Northern
Ireland and we wish you continued success.
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