Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220-224)
ASSETS RECOVERY
AGENCY
1 MARCH 2006
Q220 Mr Campbell: Just on those figures,
you have said that is an explanation of it but if Northern Ireland
is roughly about 3% of the population of England and Wales and
Northern Ireland and whether the figure is 22% or 30% of your
work or investigative responsibilities of Northern Ireland, does
that mean Northern Ireland is 10 times more prone to criminality
or that you are underactive in England and Wales?
Q221 Chairman: And are you not under-resourced,
if this is true, as well?
Ms Earl: I think that is almost
"if I had a wife I would have stopped beating her at this
point"! The first thing to remind you is that when the Act
was being considered by Parliament there was a very clear and
I think proper view which said these were powers which assist
in the normalisation process going on in Northern Ireland and
as a result of that there is a statutory requirement for my Agency
to have Alan as an assistant director in Northern Ireland; I do
not have a statutory requirement to have an assistant director
in any other part of the United Kingdom. So there was always a
very clear understanding that we would put a significant presence
into Northern Ireland, and I have to say I am very happy that
we do that because I think we can make an impact. I think what
is interesting for us is to be able to operate in a concentrated
way to see just what impact we can have on both the perceptions
of the risk to reward criminality and also the perceptions by
the community at large about whether or not we are genuinely all
working together to try and make them feel safer and to take action
perhaps against some of those people who have been very adverse
role models in the past, but I do not think you can do the mathematical
calculation and say it is 10 times worse there.
Q222 Chairman: At the end of the
day when this Committee makes it report and makes recommendations
to Parliament are there particular things you would like to see
in those recommendations insofar as your operation in Belfast
is concerned? You are not beating your wife but if I were your
fairy godmother what would you like me to give you to make your
operations in Belfast more effective and comprehensive?
Ms Earl: I think there are some
of the legislative changes which Anthony can certainly talk about,
and making better use of the tax powers. I think there is a second
issue which would be fantastic to see in Northern Ireland, as
it would across the England and Wales police, which is back to
this issue about delays, about putting some firm timetables into
the legal system with which we operate so that if people have
not responded by a given time then we draw different inferences
from those who are prepared to engage in the process, and I think
we would be looking for better ways to enforce on some of our
internationally obtained property because we need to be able to
make that very clear deterrent message.
Mr McQuillan: Coming back to resources,
obviously it would be nice to have more but I think the other
important factor to realise is that we are totally dependent upon
our partners and they are very committed but every referral involves
them in a significant amount of work, and just pumping more money
into the Assets Recovery Agency would not resolve anything unless
there were a comparable commitment in other areas to resource
the provision of the information. That would be critical as well.
It is a systemic approach that is needed.
Q223 Mr Fraser: Obviously the point
has been made about financial resources but it is also management
and professional skills resources. Can you share with us briefly
your priorities in that respect over the next few years?
Mr McQuillan: In terms of management
and professional skills we reckon quite clearly that the opposition
will become cleverer as time goes on. We have a comprehensive
training regime for our staff. We are the national accreditation
agency for financial investigators and as part of that we have
a comprehensive programme for continuous personal development
for staff, and we are continuously seeking ways in which we can
improve that. We have developed relationships with our colleagues
in the Criminal Assets Bureau building on their experience. We
are looking at colleagues elsewhere in other areas of the world
to see if we can learn anything from experience there, and therefore
we are trying to build up that area of the skills base in the
Agency. As an Agency we are also attempting to build our own internal
management skills to make sure we get the absolute best value
for all the public money that has been vested.
Ms Earl: The only thing I would
add to that is, exactly as Alan said, the other side are getting
cleverer as we go along and we have to continue to be one step
ahead. We also have to get better at ensuring that everybody knows
just what we are doing and which of those points of law which
really have now been properly dealt with to make it clear to our
Respondents that fighting those points is only going to involve
them in more abortive legal costs, and will not actually make
a difference to the outcome in the end.
Mr Fraser: So you could hypothetically
put a proposal forward that you need as much short money as political
parties that do not get their seats get?
Q224 Chairman: I do not think we
can expect you to comment on that mischievous question! Moving
on before our private session, you quite rightly and understandably
said you could not comment on sentencing. This is a slightly different
point. The IMC have recently recommended that there should be
a licensing regime whereby if a business did not perform ethically
it could be closed, and this is something that came through in
the evidence we had from the road hauliers as well, and that was
on-the-record evidence. Would you welcome a tighter regulation
of businesses that operate within Northern Ireland? Would that
make your job easier?
Ms Earl: I think it would. I think
we are supportive of the line which has also been taken by the
emerging Serious Organised Crime Agency which is that we all collectively
involved in the widest sense of possible law enforcement have
a range of powers and on occasions we have to look at how we might
widen regulatory powers in order to better, in that case, a more
level playing field for those who are operating legitimately,
so certainly I think we would have no difficulty with being on
the record saying that that always is worth exploring.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed
and thank you and your two colleagues for the very lucid and helpful
evidence that you have given, which will certainly assist us when
we come to prepare our report. Thank you for the supplementary
information you promised to send. It may well be that we will
wish to ask you some specific questions in writing as well and
you have given me a private assurance which I now put on the record
that you would be as helpful as possible. We appreciate that and
wish you success in your endeavours, and may your resources not
get smaller and may your receipts get larger! Thank you very much
indeed. Could I now declare the public session closed and ask
colleagues to remain, and those in the public gallery to withdraw.
Thank you very much.
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