Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380-399)
DEPARTMENT FOR
SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
3 MAY 2006
Q380 Stephen Pound: Not exactly but
I know what you mean. Can I say, just to pick up another point,
and I am reluctant to weigh in behind any slogan of "no surrender,"
you mentioned, Ms MacHugh, earlier on, that after 1996 the PSNI
and I cannot remember the exact words but you said they adopted
a more robust role. Was that an operational decision, was that
the result of statute, or was that some procedural change perhaps
generated by your own Department? What was the basis for that
change in direction?
Ms MacHugh: The Regulations set
down very strict controls over how clubs dealt with money on the
premises. They also had to send in annual accounts to the local
police station every year. That was followed up, on an annual
basis, by an on-site inspection by police, and potentially one
or two other, smaller inspections, and they could just walk in
and do that.
Q381 Stephen Pound: So this is a
result of statutory changes?
Ms MacHugh: Yes.
Q382 Stephen Pound: Which piece of
legislation was that?
Ms MacHugh: It is the Clubs (Accounts)
Regulations 1997, which followed on from the Clubs Registration
1996.
Q383 Mr Anderson: Can you give us
some idea of the size, of how many licensed premises there are?
Ms MacHugh: There are just under
1,900 pubs and off-licences, and I think there are around 540
clubs and there are about 400 others, so that will be some hotels,
guest-houses and other premises in which you can buy alcohol.
Q384 Mr Anderson: There is an element
of compensation we would be talking about here?
Ms MacHugh: Yes.
Q385 Chairman: According to Ms Carruthers,
we would also be talking of one community particularly, because
she did make the point in public evidence that most licensees
were from the Catholic community; is that right?
Ms MacHugh: That would be the
pubs, yes.
Q386 Chairman: You would not dispute
that?
Ms MacHugh: No.
Q387 Lady Hermon: May I get one point
absolutely on the record. The PSNI chose this rule about the Accounts
Regulations. Can I just get it clear whether in fact there is
a conflict of view coming from the PSNI in relation to the surrender
value of these particular licences; does the PSNI support the
abolition of the surrender requirement?
Ms MacHugh: Yes. The PSNI has
been very supportive of the complete package of measures that
our Minister is proposing.
Q388 Chairman: With or without compensation?
Ms MacHugh: With or without; I
do not suppose compensation would be, I am sure that PSNI would
be—
Q389 Chairman: No; we want to get
this on the record?
Ms MacHugh: Deputy Chief Constable
Paul Leighton said that the package of measures was a responsible
balance in forward thinking and they have been very supportive
of the whole of the proposals throughout.
Q390 Chairman: We shall be pursuing
the finance issue on Monday, when we are likely to discuss this
with them.
Ms MacHugh: Bear in mind that
the proposals also give PSNI much greater enforcement powers than
they had before to deal with the premises that they are worried
about, and there are some rogue traders.
Q391 Lady Hermon: Would you like
to elaborate on the greater control that they will have?
Ms MacHugh: At present, it is
actually quite difficult to close down premises or to penalise
premises which continue to break the law, in terms of, say, serving
under-age drinkers, so we are planning to introduce a penalty
points system, temporary immediate closure powers for the police,
if they have a concern about a situation developing in a particular
premises.
Q392 Lady Hermon: Including powers
if they suspect that there is paramilitary activity and criminality,
where they will have the powers obviously to go against those
other pubs or clubs?
Ms MacHugh: Yes, and obviously
they would need evidence of criminal activity and there would
be greater powers to either suspend or revoke licences.
Q393 Mr Grogan: You said there was
going to an imminent statement from the Minister, or a statement
soon anyway; there is a hint in what you have said and indeed
in the memorandum of what might be in it. Just to check, as I
understand it, on timing, that you have drawn a distinction between
the proposals regarding opening hours enforcement, children and
Registration of Clubs (Accounts), which in your memorandum you
suggest might even come in this year. Then the other measures
to do with bringing in councils, and so on, and their surrender
principle, changing that, that would be 2009. I had a letter from
the Minister, David Hanson, dated 19 April, when he told me that
the Secretary of State and his ministerial colleagues in Northern
Ireland look forward to a local Assembly being in a position to
legislate on liquor licensing matters. He said the introduction
of proposed new legislation is still some way off, and "I
can assure you that I will consider all the views received before
firming up proposals for the draft legislation." Is the Department
saying that this will be left on the table until hopefully by
November the Assembly will be up and running, or has the Minister
powers to enact the proposals, which in your memorandum you say
will come in in 2007 without fresh legislation: how is it going
to work?
Mr McGrath: I think Ministers
general position is that they would hope the Assembly would determine
a lot of these matters, that they would be dealt with on a local
basis. I think that is recurrent in every issue we deal with at
the moment. The stratagem whereby there would be two sections
to this legislation, the second one because it is linked to transferring
licensing to local authorities, there would be new local authorities
coming into being as a result of new public administration, necessarily
creates a different time-line there. That could create the potential,
indeed the hope of Ministers is that particular piece of legislation
would be dealt with by the Assembly, if it returned. The Minister,
as Linda said earlier, is looking at the whole package and the
timing of legislation at the minute and his statement will indicate
how exactly he wants to take those forward.
Q394 Mr Grogan: The first tranche
of measures which in your memorandum you say could come in this
year, would that require primary legislation, or has it got ministerial
powers?
Mr McGrath: Yes, it would.
Ms MacHugh: This year, I think
we are talking about 2007 by the time the legislative process
will get through.
Chairman: So it will be for the Queen's
Speech.
Q395 Rosie Cooper: Notwithstanding
the subject of surrender, how similar is the proposed licensing
system that you outline to the system which is being used currently
in England, which is very, very regulated and has served us well
over time; how similar is it to that?
Ms MacHugh: It is similar but
I think it differs in a number of very key areas. The first obviously
is that we are not moving to 24-hour drinking, we are having much
more curtailed hours. Secondly, as I understand the system in
England, a licence is awarded unless there is objection. The system
we are proposing in Northern Ireland will be much more proactive.
Councils will have to seek the views of key stakeholders from
the area, including local residents, the PSNI, local traders and
anybody else with a vested interest in looking at how licensed
premises are controlled in that area. It will be much, much more
proactive and it will not be based on some sort of negative equity
but unless there is an objection it will go forward. You will
have to actually prove that (a) the premises are required and
(b) that the person applying for that is fit and proper.
Q396 Rosie Cooper: Do churches qualify
as vested interests; would they be consulted properly, generally?
Ms MacHugh: Yes, and it is likely
that, for example, when local councils get community planning
powers and they look at what is happening in their whole area,
this could be one element of it, where is it appropriate for licensed
premises to be and what sorts of licensed premises should be in
each of the areas.
Q397 Gordon Banks: Just to take you
back a little bit to talk about the 2,500/3,000 licences roughly
which exist and the £140,000, £145,000, is still what
they turn over for now, how many sales are there a year of these
licences?
Ms MacHugh: I do not have any
specific figures here but if you would like them I can get them
for you.
Chairman: It would be interesting, yes.
Q398 Mr Campbell: Mr Chairman, I
just wanted to move on to the issue of 2009, under the present
proposals of the RPA we have seven super councils, I think they
are called, and they are given the power to enforce the new regime
post-2009. Given that there will be new councils, with a completely
new local government regime, completely transformed since 1973,
will there be any oversight of the councils enforcing the new
regime?
Ms MacHugh: Yes. In fact, each
council will be required to produce a licensing policy statement,
which the Department will have oversight of and I think the Minister
of that Department at the time. In that, again, they will have
to highlight as a council how they plan to meet the six licensing
objectives which underpin all the licensing regulations.
Q399 Mr Campbell: What will happen?
You will be aware, in a different context, of similar concerns
on the RPA, but let us say that there were one, or two, or even
three councils and their political control was such that their
approach to matters of law and order and co-operating with the
police was ambiguous, to say the least, if not outright oppositional,
what would happen in that circumstance? If there was some suggestion
about misgivings about the allocations of licences, a council's
duty was to enforce the law and there was a concern that the council
was not being rigorous in pursuit of the law, in terms of the
pursuit of certain licensed premises, what would happen in those
circumstances?
Mr McGrath: Each council would
have to show it was addressing the six overriding objectives.
Clearly, Ministers want a system whereby each council can perhaps
have some flexibility, otherwise you would have just a uniform
system, but equally we would not envisage that any council, in
a sense, would jettison any one of the objectives, one of which
was about preventing crime and disorder.
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