UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be
published as HC 886-iv
House of COMMONS
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
TAKEN BEFORE
Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
ORGANISED CRIME IN Northern Ireland
Wednesday 8 MARCH 2006
MRS NICHOLA CARRUTHERS
Evidence heard in Public Questions 225-
304
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Oral Evidence
Taken before the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
on Wednesday 8 March 2006
Members present
Sir Patrick Cormack, in the Chair
Mr David Anderson
Gordon Banks
Mr Gregory Campbell
Rosie Cooper
Mr Christopher Fraser
Mr John Grogan
Mr Stephen Hepburn
Lady Hermon
Meg Hillier
Stephen Pound
Sammy Wilson
________________
Memorandum submitted by Federation of the Retail Licensed Trade
Northern Ireland
Examination of Witness
Witness: Mrs Nichola
Carruthers, Chief Executive, Federation of the Retail Licensed Trade
Northern Ireland, gave evidence.
Q225 Chairman: Good afternoon. Are you on your own?
Mrs Carruthers: Yes.
Q226 Chairman:
Mrs Carruthers, you are extremely welcome. Thank you very much for agreeing to come and give evidence to the
inquiry this afternoon. As you know, we
are looking into organised crime. Yours
is the first organisation to field a single witness so all the questions will
obviously be directed to you. Would you like to say a word about your
organisation and put us in the picture and make any opening statement that you
think would be helpful to you or to the Committee?
Mrs Carruthers: Thank you very
much, Chairman. I am the Chief
Executive of the Federation of the Retail Licensed Trade, Northern
Ireland. We represent about 1100
members. The vast majority of our
members would be pubs but we also represent off-licences and a number of hotels
and restaurants, but by far and away the biggest category would be pubs.
Q227 Chairman:
What percentage of the pubs would that be?
Mrs Carruthers: About 70%. We are the only trade association that
represents the licensed trade in Northern Ireland, and we have been around in
some shape or form since 1873, so the organisation has been around for a length
of time. We have members from all
across Northern Ireland and we have no one area where we have a bigger spread
of members or where we are under represented; so the 70% is pretty much across
the board. We are a small organisation,
that said, with a very small staff. We
do have a dedicated training department, and much of our time these days is
spent in providing industry training courses and trying to raise standards
across the industry. We very much
welcome this inquiry. I will try to be
as helpful as possible, to the best of my ability. That is all I would like to say.
Q228 Chairman:
Thank you very much indeed. I should
say at the beginning that some of our witnesses have chosen to give some of
their evidence in private. If you feel,
during the course of questioning, that there are matters which you would rather
deal with privately, then we will be very happy to give you ten minutes or
whatever at the end. We have other
witnesses who are indeed going to give evidence in private this afternoon, and
so I am quite anxious that we encompass our session with you by four o'clock,
if you can; but obviously if there are points that we are still doing we will
continue. Do you have any affiliate
body in the Republic?
Mrs Carruthers: Not formal
affiliation. We are members of an
organisation called the United Kingdom and Ireland Licensed Trade
Association. We are a member of that,
as is the Federation of Licensed Victuallers in England, which represents
largely tenants and other operators, the Scottish Licensed Trade Association
and the Vintners Federation of Ireland.
There is no full-time member from Wales and their set-up is slightly
different to our own, but we do have very close links with our colleagues in
the Republic.
Q229 Chairman:
You do; and are those amicable links?
Mrs Carruthers: Absolutely.
Q230 Chairman:
What evidence do you have to support your view that the illegal alcohol trade,
to quote your written evidence - for which many thanks - continues to grow and
flourish?
Mrs Carruthers: Chairman, it is
really the evidence from what my members tell me of what happens in their local
areas, and also the evidence from the police.
We have very close working relationships with the police across Northern
Ireland in all areas. We had someone
from the police attend a general meeting of our Federation a couple of years
ago specifically on the issue of illegal sales of alcohol, and especially
counterfeit alcohol and counterfeit money.
They were of the view that the problem was a large one in Northern
Ireland; that there were certain areas in Northern Ireland where the
counterfeit alcohol is being produced on an alarming scale. There is the evidence from there and also
from our dealings with local drug and alcohol teams across Northern
Ireland. They would tell us that
illegal sales from sources such as markets, ice cream vans, sales door-to-door,
sales from taxis, would be a significant problem, and that would be something
that a lot of our members would tell us as well.
Q231 Chairman:
Do you share the view that has been advanced by others who have given evidence
that organised crime has become and continues to be more sophisticated?
Mrs Carruthers: It is a
difficult area for me to comment on, to be perfectly honest. Organised crime and crime in general are not
issues that my members discuss a lot.
There is certainly a perception out there. Whether it is a perception that is based on hard evidence or hard
fact, or it is a perception from what one reads in the newspapers and the
stories one hears, it is very difficult to know. There would certainly be a perception in the society of Northern
Ireland amongst my members that crime and organised crime is a problem, but it
is exceptionally difficult to quantify because it is not something that we can
talk about. It is also difficult to
know where organised crime stops and crime per se starts.
Q232 Chairman:
As far as crime is concerned, do you think that the ordinary - I hate to use
this term - the ordinary, everyday drug that manifests itself perhaps in public
houses in the rest of the UK is not such a problem in Northern Ireland; it is
rather the organised, sophisticated crime?
Mrs Carruthers: It would be very
difficult for me to say that. The types
of crime that the average pub would face would be people running off without
paying, but mostly things like silly fights and criminal damage. I imagine that is the problem across the
United Kingdom and Ireland. Our off-licence
members would tell us that they would suffer a significant amount of thefts and
robberies whether through grab-and-runs of their premises or moneys being
stolen from the Securicor vans doing deliveries. Again, when they are recording those they are just recorded as
incidents; they do not know whether it is necessarily organised or not.
Q233 Chairman:
Are you happy with the levels of co-operation you receive from PSNI, with the
efficiency of PSNI, or are there problems on that front?
Mrs Carruthers: Again, it is a
difficult one. As a federation we have
good working relationships with the PSNI across Northern Ireland. We work on a lot of local initiatives
together. A lot of them are
partnerships and they provide training for us, for providing door supervisors, et
cetera: but if you were to ask me was that a view shared by all the members
of the Federation, I would have to say not.
We did some research amongst the membership a couple of years ago,
basically to ask whether they would be comfortable in phoning the police and
asking for assistance or reporting crimes.
A good portion of them were; 80% said there was no difficulty in
contacting the police for assistance; but 20% of them said they would not, and
reasons for that ranged from political sensibilities to, "there is no point -
slow response time; nothing will happen".
Q234 Chairman:
Was that reluctance mainly from the Catholic community?
Mrs Carruthers: The pub trade in
Northern Ireland is largely Catholic.
It is a historical thing. We
would estimate that about 80% of pubs in Northern Ireland would be
Catholic-owned and run.
Q235 Chairman:
The vast majority of them would be quite happy calling in the PSNI, and just a
small group would not.
Mrs Carruthers: Yes.
Q236 Mr Anderson:
I want to ask you particularly about shebeens.
You said in your submission to the Committee that they were widespread. Can you give us some idea of the scale of
them and the nature of them? Are we
talking about farms or houses? Do you
think there any link between these and paramilitaries?
Mrs Carruthers: Shebeens in
Northern Ireland were really started in the late 1960s and early 1970s, really
as a result of the troubles and curfews that were imposed in certain
areas. So drinking clubs sprang up and
they were very widespread. As time went
on more and more of those clubs became legitimate and they were brought within
the proper registered club system. The
registered clubs numbers grew from about 200 in the early 1970s to around 600
at the end of the time. A lot of the
registered clubs, the properly run registered clubs, that we have these days
did start off as shebeens. These days,
when members would refer to shebeens, it is any form of illegal drinking
den. Thinking about this, reports in
the last year have not been that great.
They seem to come in spates. It
seemed a couple of years ago that I was getting a lot of reports about various
shebeens around the country, whether they be in sheds, front rooms, possibly
linked to farms. As to whether or not
they are linked to paramilitaries, I could not say.
Q237 Mr Anderson:
Have you any idea of numbers, which is the question I asked earlier?
Mrs Carruthers: I honestly would
not know. I would simply be guessing.
Q238 Mr Anderson:
Is it possible you can estimate the impact on your members on legitimate
venues?
Mrs Carruthers: You have got
both the impact obviously on turnover, on customers; you have also got the fact
that some of the shebeens would be getting their alcohol from illegal
sources. They might even be making
their own, for all anyone knows. There
would be an effect both on the legitimate trade on registered clubs and on pubs
because obviously if people are going to shebeens, that is a lot cheaper and
they would not be going to proper licensed premises. Also, you do not know where the alcohol in shebeens is coming
from, where it is supplied from. We
heard, for example, that one shebeen - I was told that was in existence - had
proper taps, proper kegs. Where are
these coming from?
Q239 Mr Anderson:
What is the address for that one!
Mrs Carruthers: Obviously, at
that time we spoke to the police and also spoke to the brewers to see whether
they were able to be of assistance; and as far as I know that one is no longer
there. They can be very inventive in
the way they get access to alcohol, and that inventiveness fuels the illegal drinks
supply, and it keeps going.
Q240 Mr Anderson:
You mentioned to the Chairman about links with the PSNI. Is it possible to see how successful they
have been in closing these places down?
Mrs Carruthers: It is very
difficult actually because some district command units would be more helpful
than others. In this particular
instance they were talking about this particular subject. I fully understand the problems that the
PSNI faces in certain areas in Northern Ireland, and I know that for example
when I did report a shebeen once I was told that the police knew about it and
had knowledge of it and were trying to manage the situation; but they were
obviously trying to build links with the local community in that area, and so
that type of set-up had to be handled in a very different way to how a different
type of shebeen might be handled.
Q241 Mr Anderson:
You are not suggesting the police turn a blind eye.
Mrs Carruthers: No.
Q242 Mr Anderson:
It is just that sometimes -----
Mrs Carruthers: No, it is just
that things have to be managed in different ways.
Q243 Sammy Wilson:
On the question of illegal drinking in clubs, there was some disturbing comment
on the change of regulations, either in regard to licensing and the lifting of
the cap on licence, and the ease with which that will allow people to enter the
industry - and also the deregulation of pubs: do you see that as a big
potential for swinging some of these illegal shebeens into the legal end of the
market? In doing so of course it is
much easier to launder stolen fuel and money?
Mrs Carruthers: Absolutely; it
is a huge issue. The whole licensing
review is a huge issue for the licensed trade at the moment. The Registration of Clubs (Accounts)
Regulations were put into place ten years ago to try to stop money being
laundered through the clubs. The vast,
vast majority of registered clubs are run perfectly well and properly, as they
should be. The Registration of Clubs
(Accounts) Regulations are a significant burden for some of those clubs; but at
the same time they were put into force for a very legitimate reason - to try to
stop an avenue for money, fuel, alcohol or whatever to be laundered. At the moment the proposal is that the
Registration of Clubs (Accounts) Regulations go. They are also proposing that clubs are deregulated to a certain
extent to make them more like pubs, in that they will have the same opening
hours and the same modus operandi as pubs. They are also proposing removing the cap on the number of
licences in Northern Ireland. For those
members who are unaware, there is a different licensing system in Northern
Ireland. In order to open a pub or an
off-sales you have to purchase an existing licence. It means that there is a significant financial commitment that goes
into entering the licensed trade. As
you may be aware, the licensed trade is very much a cash trade, but it has been
identified by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs as a type of business which
money can be laundered through. It
would be the trade's view that the proposed changes to the Northern Ireland
licensing legislation could legitimise some of the illegitimate sources out
there, or simply just make it easier for others to enter the trade and to
launder money.
Q244 Sammy Wilson:
In our recommendations, Nichola, if I could draw this out for you, how
important is it that in seeking to stop organised crime getting a bigger hold
on the industry, we and government address the issues you have just talked
about?
Mrs Carruthers: We believe it is
absolutely vital. The problem that the
Committee has addressed of organised crime in Northern Ireland and the
difficulty people have of getting a handle on it and getting to know its many
tentacles and strands - we need to cut off as many avenues as we possibly can
and not make things easier; so it is absolutely fundamental that the Government
looks closely at proposals of licensing.
Indeed, in the Organised Crime Task Force annual report it identified
that one of the areas it wanted to look at in the coming year was charities
legislation, which I know the Committee has been discussing, but also the
regulatory framework for hotels, pubs and taxis. I only came across this when I was preparing for the Committee
because we have not had any dealings with Organised Crime Task Force, and I am
not aware that the task force or the Assets Recovery Agency was consulted when
drawing up the current proposals for deregulation of licensing.
Q245 Lady Hermon:
Do you think the Minister is listening to the views you have given about the
change to the licensing regulations?
Mrs Carruthers: I very much hope that the Minister will be
listening. The consultation period is
now closed. I know there have been
about a thousand responses to the proposals.
Not all those responses are yet on the website but at the last count we
noticed that there were 622 responses against the proposals and six in
favour. It is also worth noting that
there is complete cross-party support on this, which is unusual in Northern
Ireland! We very much hope that the
Minister will listen. The consultation
is a genuine consultation.
Chairman: We all hope that the
consultations are genuine, or at least this one is. We are listening very carefully to what you say and we shall be
framing recommendations based on our evaluation of the evidence we have
received. Up to now, yours is very
good.
Q246 Mr Campbell:
In your correspondence with the Committee you made reference to the taxis
selling alcohol. That issue has been
around in Northern Ireland for some time in anecdotal form. What evidence is there from your members and
what knowledge and experience is there of that as an issue? Is it a big issue; is it growing; what sort
of impact is it having?
Mrs Carruthers: It is a big
issue. In the past, a lot of tax
drivers would have maybe pleaded ignorance about what they were doing. That is less likely to happen these days
because the police have now become a lot more aware of the problem, and we have
certainly run joint seminars with the police to highlight the issues around
taxi deliveries of alcohol. Some of our
members would say that in the past they were aware of taxis coming in buying
off them, which is becoming less of a problem.
The individual taxi driver delivering to customers' houses is possibly
becoming less of a problem because awareness is certainly growing and police
awareness is certainly growing. One
area that has long been a problem would be the more organised taxi
deliveries. These spring up in various
forms, and it is pretty easy to get the evidence for it because they advertise
quite widely; they are not shy about putting leaflets through doors saying
"Dial a drink 24 hours a day".
Q247 Chairman:
Is it a black label, black taxi?
Mrs Carruthers: No, it would
tend to be minicab taxis. There are
many cab firms that would advertise "dial a drink" quite openly, 24 hours a
day. We are also aware that there are
taxis which just drive round with a stock of alcohol in their boot. Anecdotally I can tell you that a good
friend of mine asked a taxi driver to stop at an off-licence for them when they
were on the way to a friend's house, and the taxi driver said, "there is no
need" and opened the boot of the car, and there was a selection to choose from.
Chairman: It is not very good
for the claret, though, driving it around like that!
Sammy Wilson: I do not think it
is claret they are drinking, Chairman!
Q248 Mr Campbell:
This is Northern Ireland, Chairman; I just remind you!
Mrs Carruthers: I think you tend
to get a choice of one vodka and two types of beer. That seems to be all that is available. I also know that there are other minicab firms that operate systems
from residential homes with alcohol being stored in garages. These are obviously passed on to the police.
Chairman: This is a new world,
is it not?
Q249 Mr Campbell:
You are saying that some of it is becoming less of a problem.
Mrs Carruthers: Yes.
Q250 Mr Campbell:
Is it becoming less of a problem because the police were contacted and took a
very robust approach to the pursuance of those who were carrying out this
activity?
Mrs Carruthers: Certainly,
police in certain areas where it was becoming a significant problem did take it
on board to make it their business to talk to other local taxi firms and to try
to cut it off. It has been raised by
the local drug and alcohol co-ordination teams with whom we would work closely
in relation to the Northern Ireland drug and alcohol strategy in the past. Taxis have been identified as a big source
of alcohol to the under-aged. The local
drug and alcohol teams would say that certain taxis, certain ice cream vans
even, in particular areas would be a good source of alcohol. A taxi would deliver to a door, and an
under-18 would open the door and say, "this is for my mum; she is just
upstairs; hand over the money"; and the alcohol would change hands. It was a very easy way for the under-18s to
get access to alcohol.
Q251 Chairman:
Not alcoholic ice cream, surely!
Mrs Carruthers: Fish and chip
vans are another one.
Q252 Mr Campbell:
What about counterfeit alcohol?
Mrs Carruthers: That, again, is
a big problem in Northern Ireland. I
made reference earlier to the presentation we had from the police counterfeit
team to our annual general meeting a couple of years ago. Counterfeit Smirnoff is the main problem in
Northern Ireland. The counterfeiters
are extremely adept at copying the bottle.
Diageo actually changed the Smirnoff bottle about a year ago to try to
keep a step ahead of the counterfeiters, but of course they have now caught up.
Q253 Chairman:
They make this brew in Northern Ireland and put it in these kinds of bottles.
Mrs Carruthers: Yes. It is a big problem. People would have said in the past that
counterfeit alcohol was being sold in pubs et cetera. I firmly
believe that that is not a problem at all.
The checks on the alcohol sold in pubs are so significant and stringent
these days; it is not just Trading Standards officers that go round checking
alcohol in pubs; it is the Environmental Health officers under the Food
Standards Agency - quite rightly too!
Specific testing kits have been developed in conjunction with the drinks
companies, so it is now very easy for a Trading Standards or Environmental
Health officer to check the validity of a product that is being sold across the
counter. It is our understanding that
the biggest problem with the counterfeit stuff is markets, door-to-door sales,
and again the taxis. People think that
they are getting a bargain if they are buying a bottle of Smirnoff for five
pounds, but they are certainly not buying a bottle of Smirnoff.
Q254 Mr Campbell:
The anecdotal evidence that I have heard would appear to suggest that there is
quite a sophisticated operation. Have
your members indicated the variety of sources that might be involved in such a
sophisticated operation?
Mrs Carruthers: No, it is not
something which I would have any specific information on. The level of sophistication was something
that the police have told us about through factories, for want of a better
word, that they have found in certain areas, which are manufacturing this
counterfeit product. They are
sophisticated operations. My members
would tell me that they are not that often offered stuff these days. In the past there might have been a knock on
the back door and someone was trying to sell them a dodgy product; but that is
not a big problem these days because they know they are not going to take
it. It is difficult to know exactly
where it comes from but the police would tell us it is very, very
sophisticated, which is why it is so difficult for legitimate companies to keep
one step ahead of the counterfeiters.
Q255 Mr Campbell:
If it is the case that most counterfeit alcohol is not going through legitimate
channels and is reaching the general public through shebeens and illegal
drinking establishments, and if those who are responsible for the formulation
and distribution of counterfeit alcohol are extremely sophisticated - and I
would assume they would need to work in areas where they are less likely to be
detected - is there a possibility, probability, that there is a paramilitary
link at some point in that chain?
Mrs Carruthers: I could not
say. I could not say any more than
anybody else in Northern Ireland could say, but the Committee would have to
draw its own conclusions from the level of sophistication.
Q256 Chairman:
Is it coming over the border?
Mrs Carruthers: From what the
police tell us, a lot of it is based in Northern Ireland, around border areas.
Q257 Mr Campbell:
You said the Committee should draw its own conclusions but what would be your
best guess?
Mrs Carruthers: I honestly could
not say.
Mr Campbell: What would your
members' best guess be?
Q258 Chairman:
She would have to ask them, would she not?
Mrs Carruthers: There is obviously a lot of sophistication
involved but I couldn't go any further than that.
Mr Campbell: We can draw our own
conclusions.
Q259 Meg Hillier:
Ms Carruthers, you talked about not being able to be sure about the impact on
your members. Do you have any figures
showing the percentage of legitimate sales of alcohol in pubs and in your
off-licence members over the years that would indicate whether it has gone up
or down?
Mrs Carruthers: Off the top of
my head I could not tell you precise figures.
What I could tell you is that the general trend is towards a general
decline in on-sales and a growth in off-sales.
There has certainly been a growth in the off-sales trade in Northern
Ireland and especially since the arrival of the supermarkets around ten years
ago, so this trend would be mirrored across everywhere.
Q260 Meg Hillier: From that trend you could tell that
difference. Is there any way you could
look at those figures - or maybe even supply them - if you can you tell by
monitoring that whether there has been an increase in illegal purchasing?
Mrs Carruthers: I think it would be difficult to draw that
conclusion from the figures. The only
figures we have been able to get on the level of counterfeit alcohol are
figures that are UK-wide and they are pretty elderly figures; they are three or
four years old now.
Q261 Chairman:
Can I just ask a question that might be helpful to Mr Campbell and Meg
Hillier: would it be feasible for you,
following this session, to write to your members just to see how many of them
had had what was called the knock on the back door for counterfeit alcohol in
the last year and whether this represented an increase or a decrease in those
approaches. I am not asking for names
or locations, but it would be an answer to Mr Campbell's question, and
indeed Meg Hillier's if you had some sort of indication from them.
Mrs Carruthers: Certainly.
Q262 Gordon Banks:
I want to take you back to the point you made about bottling and that it all
comes down to this level of sophistication.
In my constituency I also have a major bottling plant, and bottle
manufacturing in my constituency, so I can understand the difficulty. How do these people get these bottles? Are they stealing new bottles; are they
stealing recycled bottles? They are
surely not manufacturing bottles because it is such a complex operation! Is it organised that they are stealing
bottles from Owens-Illinois?
Mrs Carruthers: I honestly could
not tell you. I would not know at
all. I know that they could be stealing
them from people's back yards. They
could be being sold to them - I do not know.
I know that the vast majority of bottles are not returnable bottles these
days, so they just go straight into the bottle bank and it is lifted by a glass
manufacturer and recycled. I couldn't
tell you where they get bottles from.
Lady Hermon: Nichola, you are
very welcome here. It is a very
interesting session, if I may say so. I
am tasked to ask you about floor supervisors.
Before I do so can I ask you about poteen: is it poteen manufacture
still prevalent in Northern Ireland, particularly around the border areas? Is it a constituent used in the manufacture
of Smirnoff or counterfeit Smirnoff?
Q263 Chairman:
Can you tell the difference?
Mrs Carruthers: I honestly
wouldn't know. One hears of Poteen but,
to be honest - I think that would probably do less harm than a lot of the
counterfeit Smirnoff.
Q264 Lady Hermon:
Less harm?
Mrs Carruthers: Yes. A lot of the counterfeit Smirnoff - the big
problem with a lot of counterfeit alcohol is that you simply don't know what is
in it. We get warnings from
Environmental Health officers from time to time that they have identified a
certain consignment, for want of a better word, of an illegal alcohol that has
got methane in or - really dangerous stuff in it. It is a dangerous product and
it should not be out there. I really
could not tell you about Poteen I am afraid.
Q265 Lady Hermon:
Moving on to door supervisors, could you tell me about the numbers? I know it is moving from the ridiculous to
the sublime. How representative are the
door supervisors of the community in Northern Ireland in terms of gender? I do know that women bring a different much
calmer atmosphere to pubs, and I would be interested to know how many women are
employed.
Mrs Carruthers: There are
apparently very few employed, probably less than 5% at the moment. It is something we are trying to
change. The venues that do employ a
large number of door supervisors are aware that they need to change. We are certainly getting a growing number of
females coming through our training courses.
It is very important that venues do have female door supervisors
on. As you say, they bring a calming
influence. One of the things we train
them on is drugs awareness and how to find drugs. If you are planning on searching a woman you have got to have a
woman doing it. It is very important,
and the number of female door supervisors is growing. In the last couple of years, you are not talking about doubling
every year - it would be an awful lot more than that. Five years ago you could probably count the number of female door
supervisors on one hand. There is now
still not nearly enough there is definitely a growing number, judging by the
number of people we are now training.
Q266 Lady Hermon:
That is very good news. Northern
Ireland at present does not fall under the security industry agency. Would you like it to do so? Has the Federation actively campaigned for
it to do so, and what would be the advantages if the SIA were to extend its
remit to Northern Ireland?
Mrs Carruthers: We have not yet
campaigned actively, apart from talking to local councils. We have been waiting until the whole thing
has been up and running to see exactly how well it is working. It is about to extend its authority into
Scotland, as far as I know. Door
supervisors, five years ago, were entirely unregulated in Northern Ireland and
they were completely untrained, but four years ago we worked with the British
Inn-keeping Institute to develop a door supervisor course specifically for
Northern Ireland, based very much on the GB version, but with differences for
the different Northern Ireland legislative structure. We started off doing that in partnership with the local
councils. Given that the people who
employed door supervisors also had entertainment licences, which were granted
by local councils, it seemed a sensible way of doing it. We also wanted to do it in partnership with
the local drugs teams and local police, trying to make it as inclusive as
possible. We started training in the
west of Northern Ireland in Omagh, Eniskillen and up to Straban, because often
our members would tell us we were too Belfast based, so we like to be as
non-Belfast based as possible. We
started off training them. Very early
on we realised that there was going to be an issue in difference between
training and registration, because the two things are very separate. We went and talked to the councils about
this. It was quite clear that some
councils just wanted their door supervisors to be trained and they did not want
to get into anything to do with registration at all.
Q267 Lady Hermon:
Why was that?
Mrs Carruthers: They knew there would be difficulties with
registration because registration would involve police checks, and they wanted
at that stage - they saw it as being more important that a critical mass were
trained and able to deal with customers properly and able to carry out their
duties properly; so they were properly trained and then they would tackle registration
later on, as it were. The majority of
councils have never touched the registration.
It would tend to be councils in and around North Down, Belfast, that
tackled registration, and, again, even then with those that do registration,
they do it in different ways. For
example, North Down have set up a local committee of licensees, the council and
police, who vet the door supervisors and get their reference checks; and that
body decides whether or not to get somebody registration. On the other side of the coin, you have the
system in Belfast, which, I have to say, the members in Belfast do not like
because Belfast require police checks to be taken of the door supervisors but
that police check is then given back to the licensee and the licensee has to
exercise their own judgment as to whether or not they want to employ that door
supervisor. The reason we would like to
see an SIA type body in Northern Ireland is that it would remove that
difficulty from the licensee. There are
times when licensees are encouraged to employ particular door supervisors.
Q268 Lady Hermon:
Can you elaborate upon the word "encourage" - by whom?
Mrs Carruthers: There are a
number of very good door supervisor firms, which are great, and an awful lot of
licensees would employ people as employees and then just use them
individually. There has been in the
past a perception that organisations would have door supervisors that they
would like to get on to premises.
Q269 Lady Hermon: Is it a reality though?
Mrs Carruthers: My members have
never told me one way or another whether they have been persuaded or not, but
what I can say is that a lot of members have said that they would like not to
have to make their own judgment as to whether or not they employ someone; they
would like to be able to point to a third party, saying, "I am sorry, I can't
employ you because SIA says I cannot".
Q270 Lady Hermon:
In other words, compulsory training and compulsory registration would be very
helpful to the Federation or to your members.
Mrs Carruthers: Absolutely.
Q271 Lady Hermon:
Before I leave this issue, can I ask you to clarify something in the evidence
that you very kindly submitted to the Committee? Licensees can come under
pressure to employ particular individuals (with paramilitary and/or criminal
links) and in the absence of something akin to the SIA it would be difficult to
refuse. Is that a localised Belfast
issue; is it more to the west of the Province?
Is it right across Northern Ireland?
What could be done to address that?
Mrs Carruthers: We have heard
about it in Belfast and in the west and north-west. We have not heard about it, to be honest, in other areas. What could be done would be something like
the SIA or, at the very least, local councils putting down more stringent
requirements in terms of who can or cannot be registered - taking not
necessarily full responsibility but assisting their licensees in turning down
applications for door supervisors rather than putting the full onus and burden
back on the licensee.
Q272 Lady Hermon:
Some local councils are but most are not; so you are really quite critical of
local councils not giving you sufficient back-up and support that your members
would like.
Mrs Carruthers: It has been
surprising how many local councils in Northern Ireland have not even been interested
in training door supervisors. That has
been a surprise to us. In some ways it
has been useful because being a small organisation at the moment we are
training in those areas where we are wanted, and we have certainly got enough
to do. Every single solitary door
supervisor should be properly trained and registered; they absolutely
should. A lot of the councils have been
excellent. Our preferred mode of
training the door supervisors is to work in partnership with the police, the
councils, the local drug and alcohol teams and the local colleges. The door supervisors are getting to know
people on the ground - the local police, the local council officials who are
doing checks. That has really helped to
improve standards and improve relations on the ground, and that has been
excellent, especially in Eniskillen where it has worked very well. There are other areas where we train door
supervisors but we just use a single trainer who can do the whole lot, because
we know that there are naturally some people who would not attend training
courses if there was police involvement, so we can accommodate everybody. Certainly our preferred mode of training is
to use the inclusive method.
Q273 Chairman:
Mr Fraser wants to move on to extortion.
Would you rather he asked these questions in private at the end, or are
you happy to take them now?
Mrs Carruthers: I can take them
now because there is not really much I can say on it, so I am fine.
Q274 Mr Fraser:
Thank you very much for your evidence!
Next question! I appreciate you
have made it clear that everyone is aware of it, and very little is talked
about, but can you enlighten us as to the extent of the problem of extortion
and how it affects your members in general terms?
Mrs Carruthers: It is even
difficult for me to talk in general terms because in five years I have been at
the Federation it is not something that has ever been discussed ever; it has
just never raised its head. I have
never had a member coming to me, asking me advice about it and to ask me to
involve the police on their behalf.
Often we would act as a go-between between members in certain areas and
the police: if members do not want to contact the police directly, we will do
it for them. I have never had any
contact from any member on the issue of extortion.
Q275 Mr Fraser:
I fully accept that. Sir Hugh Orde made
it clear when he gave evidence to us that the biggest challenge that the police
face is tackling extortion. He then
went on to say: "There are huge
opportunities for us in this field if we have the information up-front and we
want to work in partnership with the victims to deliver." Therefore, what steps could be taken to
encourage the reporting of extortion from these members you have that currently
do not want to talk about it? What can
happen in terms of a more open approach to the subject?
Mrs Carruthers: I think it would
have to be something that was not seen to be driven by the police, perhaps some
sort of impartial third party. I know
that Crime Stoppers exists, but I genuinely think that a lot of people do not
realise that Crime Stoppers is an independent charity and does not have links
with the police. I know it has recently
started an advertising campaign and that is long overdue. It is a very good thing.
Q276 Mr Fraser:
Are you talking to them yourselves?
Mrs Carruthers: No, we have not.
Business crime is obviously an issue for the whole business community. The Community Safety Unit at the Northern
Ireland Office is trying to set up a group to look specifically at business
crime. We had an initial meeting of
that last week which was useful because the police were able to supply figures
on the level of business crime across the board. It was a general feeling that it was woefully under-reported,
just on the figures that we saw. It is
not helpful to sit here and say it is very hard and we are not sure what can be
done, but one of the biggest problems is that there is a big perception that
this is going on, and those people who are suffering from it are fearful. That is the basic bottom line. People would be scared to report it. It will be a very long time before that can
be overcome. Perhaps as the Assets
Recovery Agency and the Organised Task Force become more visible and more work
is done, that will allay fears to some extent, but it is a hugely difficult
area.
Q277 Mr Fraser:
Is that because of the repercussions from the organisations that are
undertaking such activity, or is it because your members feel when they report
to police that either it is not taken seriously, or they are dealing with it in
a way that is less than efficient?
Mrs Carruthers: I cannot comment
specifically on the extortion and what our members believe to be the case on
extortion, and why they do not report it.
On business crime per se a lot of them would not report it
because they feel it is a waste of time.
Q278 Chairman:
Do you have anonymous surveys of your members, questionnaires, that they feel
in without necessarily having to say who they are? Do you assess feelings and views on that basis at all?
Mrs Carruthers: We have done
that in the past, yes.
Q279 Chairman:
Would you be able to do that in this area?
Mrs Carruthers: Yes.
Chairman: That would be
extremely helpful and we would be grateful to you; it would be something we
would be very interested in.
Q280 Mr Fraser: Can I go on from that point and ask you a
question more generally about confidence?
Is it your opinion that the increased sentencing for issues like
extortion has brought a lot of confidence to your members in terms of thinking,
"when people are found out for doing things, something will happen to
them"? Has that improved the confidence
of your members?
Mrs Carruthers: I think when
people see stories in the news about various seizures that have been made and
what is happening, that generally raises confidence across the board. Whether it would make an individual be more
likely to report a case of extortion, I do not know. I think we are still a long way off that.
Q281 Mr Fraser:
To keep it on the more general point, has the recent paramilitary
organisation's decision to follow a peaceful means had a positive effect on
members of your organisation in this respect?
Mrs Carruthers: It certainly had positive implications
across the board because it has increased their business. The ghetto-isation that we had during the
troubles does not happen as much.
People are much happier to go into the town and city centres than they
were before, and there is certainly a much better feeling across Northern
Ireland since that. That has had a very
positive effect on business.
Q282 Chairman:
You have very kindly said you would do this little survey, but how do you
normally consult your members? Do you
have a series of meetings in the course of a year?
Mrs Carruthers: We are set up on
a county structure. We have seven
county associations, which is six counties plus Belfast. They send representatives to our board, and
so we have the opportunity to speak to them on a county level. At least once a year we would try to get the
whole membership together, but, like every membership organisation, we suffer
from a great difficulty in getting people to come to things.
Q283 Chairman:
We know about that!
Mrs Carruthers: We have done
surveys to members in the past, which have been done either by phone or post or
on the website.
Q284 Mr Hepburn:
What changes do you think should be made to the licensing law to deter criminal
activity?
Mrs Carruthers: None! As I mentioned previously, the proposed
changes to Northern Ireland's licensing legislation will increase criminal
activity. We certainly do not have a
perfect system by any stretch of the imagination but we do not have a bad
one. There is a genuine fear that the
proposals that are there will increase criminal activity, or there is certainly
the potential for criminal activity to be increased.
Q285 Mr Hepburn: Surely an organisation like yours supports
something like the closure of businesses if they have been found to be involved
in criminal activity.
Mrs Carruthers: Absolutely. We would not support criminal activity in
any shape or form. Indeed, we changed
our constitution a number of years ago to make it easier for us to expel any
members that were found guilty of passing on or selling dodgy spirits or
whatever. We want to represent
legitimate interests.
Q286 Chairman:
Have you expelled anybody?
Mrs Carruthers: Since we changed
the rules we have not had to; it has been excellent.
Q287 Chairman:
Did you before have to expel someone?
Mrs Carruthers: We did not have
the power to expel.
Q288 Chairman:
I see, so you did not have the power and when you had the power you ---
Mrs Carruthers: No, since we
have had the bar, there have not been any convictions of our members.
Q289 Chairman:
Did some leave?
Mrs Carruthers: One did. We then changed the constitution, but since
then there have not been any convictions, so we have not had to.
Q290 Sammy Wilson:
This might give me some idea of the extent within the trade: before you changed
your rules would you have had many of your members convicted during that period
of passing on counterfeit or stolen -----
Mrs Carruthers: It has never
been a big issue amongst the membership, to be honest. Since I have been there, in five years,
there has been one case. That was when
we realised we had to change the constitution so that if this arose again in
the future we would be able to cope with it.
It just has not been an issue in five years that I have been there, and
I am not aware it was a big issue before.
There is a perception that it is an issue, but there really are an awful
lot of checks that re done. I know that
a number of licensees do have a difficulty with the manner in which checks are
done by Trading Standards and Environmental Health officers. They tend to walk into premises that are
busy at lunchtime and say, "I am from the Trading Standards; I am here to check
your product". That is absolutely fine,
but the word quickly gets round the town that somebody has been shopped, even
though they are not.
Q291 Chairman:
"I am from the Government; I have come to help you"!
Mrs Carruthers: Exactly. People
think they must have been doing something wrong if they have come calling,
rather than if being part of a series of calls. Anybody in the trade who is selling anything they should not be
is exceptionally silly because they are going to be found out and they are only
cheating the customer at the end of the day.
Q292 Rosie Cooper:
Some organisations have given evidence to this Committee and have said that the
police have not engaged and made enough attempts to engage with the business
community, and that when they do they do not have enough resources. Sir Hugh Orde said he thought the situation
was winnable, and that they could get there.
You have touched on it briefly, but do you believe that the level of
engagement in terms of resources and connections between the business community
and the police is where it should be?
Mrs Carruthers: I do not think
so. I am talking about when our members
- for example, I spoke to one of our members who is a smallish chain of
off-licences and I spoke to them just to get a feeling from them of the level
of crime that they were facing on a day-to-day basis, and also how they felt
the police response was, because they are a pretty well-known operation, so you
would think the level of support would be pretty good. They told me that in the last year in
Belfast in about 15 stores they have had 50 incidents of robberies and
thefts. In one of those, the culprit
was apprehended and that was because they stole a whole Securicor van. The comment that was made to me was that the
police were not interested. I said,
"can I quote you on that?" They said,
"Absolutely". Again, the levels of
criminal damage - windows being put in during the night, and doors being
damaged - many people just would not bother to report it because the culprits
are never going to get caught and it takes up their business time in waiting
for scenes of crime officers to come, and they are probably not going to claim
on the insurance and they do not need the crime number, so it just goes
unreported. At the business crime
meeting I attended last week, that was the pretty unanimous view around the
table, and that the figures we were given by police about levels of business
crime were woefully under-reported.
Chairman: Again, if you could do
your own survey, that would be jolly interesting.
Q293 Rosie Cooper:
Would the Federation have any ideas of how that relationship could improve?
Mrs Carruthers: It is slightly
difficult. As a federation, we have
good working relationships with police on a range of issues. Funnily enough, issues about crime we never
talk to the police about, which seems odd; but there is just this general
feeling that there is not a lot of point.
When we did the last member survey 20% of people said they would not
report or that they would not call for assistance - there was this view,
"what's the point?" There seems to be
an acceptance that there is a level of crime, and that it needs to be
accepted. I would also say that
certainly from work the Federation does with various community groups, again
the pubs and off-licences would feel they are getting hammered a lot and blamed
for under-age drinking, antisocial behaviour, et cetera. Therefore the
work we do with the police is focused on that.
We would also do the district police partnerships and police board, et cetera, doing their surveys, and
quite rightly asking the population what they feel the police resources should
be focused on. Again, you are getting
under-age drinking, alcohol-related crime, social disorder, because the
perception is that this is a huge problem; but the business community is not as
good as it should be at sticking its head up and saying, "hold on; business
crime is also a big problem that you should be focusing resources on". I do think that the business community has
to take its blame in this as well, because it has not been as good as it should
have been at sticking its hand up and saying "this is a problem for us as
well".
Q294 Sammy Wilson:
But, Nichola, is it fair to criticise the police if you are saying that of your
members are under-reporting?
Mrs Carruthers: No, absolutely;
that is what I am saying. The business
community has to play its part in that, because it is not reporting things
because it thinks there is no point. I
also have to say that the vast majority of our members would agree that from
their perspective the police are under-resourced. They know that they are not going to be top of the list in
calling somebody out at two o'clock in the morning because there may only be
two policemen on duty for a very large area.
The police can only do so much.
Q295 Rosie Cooper:
The Organised Crime Task Force is an agency that depends on referrals. Do you know of any occasion - and I am not
asking you to nail it - where licensees have reported something to the police,
which has then been referred on?
Mrs Carruthers: No, absolutely
not. I do not believe that the
Organised Crime Task Force has a very high public view in Northern
Ireland. We have never had any dealings
with them until I was called to the Committee.
I certainly had not even looked at their website and I was even unaware
of the organisations that made it up.
The Asset Recovery Agency would have a pretty good -----
Q296 Chairman:
We have done you a great service then!
Mrs Carruthers: But the
Organised Crime Task Force has a pretty low profile.
Mr Grogan: I must confess,
Chairman, that I met Ms Carruthers at lunchtime, in my role as the Chair of the
Beer Group, and amongst other things I secured an invitation to the committee
to have a tour of historic pubs in Belfast one summer's evening!
Chairman: You would certainly
have a charming chaperone!
Q297 Mr Grogan:
In relation to the proposed licensing changes, it has been reflected in the
Committee that there is no political party that is supporting these
changes. Can you put on the Committee's
record what is proposed and where these changes have come from? They are not designed to cut crime; they
came from very different motivations.
The kernel of your argument is that they would have all sorts of
unintended consequences on a whole range of issues. Is that right?
Mrs Carruthers: Yes. The Liquor Licensing Review was launched in
Northern Ireland at the beginning of November and closed at the end of January,
so it was held over the licensed trade's busiest time, which was difficult, to
say the least.
Q298 Chairman:
Governments are good at doing that!
Mrs Carruthers: Largely, the
proposals would put the English licensing system into Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland's licensing system has
always been very, very different from that of Great Britain, and the proposals
would bring Northern Ireland completely into line with the licensing agreement,
with one exception, and that is the whole issue around 24 hours; whereas Great
Britain has 24 hours, or the potential for it, we are being given a shift from
one o'clock in the morning to two o'clock in the morning. It is our belief that it will just shift one
o'clock problems to two o'clock. The
two main difficulties in the proposals for the licensed trade are the proposal
to remove the surrender requirement, and that is the requirement whereby before
opening a pub or off-licence you first have to purchase an existing
licence. The surrender requirement has
meant therefore that there is a cap on the number of liquor licences in
Northern Ireland. We do not suffer the
same level of over provision as in other areas. Our colleagues in Scotland would tell us that they have a very
big problem of over-provision, and the number of licences in Scotland is four
times per head of population what we have in Northern Ireland. The Government, as part of its Northern
Ireland Statistics and Research Agency's Omnibus Survey, asked the population
whether or not they thought that we had too many pubs and off-licences. There was a lovely comment in the consultation
paper which said, "the majority of the population do not believe we are over
provided with pubs or off-licences.
Reading that, you would think we need some more, but what the survey
actually said was 50% thought it was exactly the right number; 46% think we
have got too many and only 3% thought there were too few; so only 3% of the
population want more. As I said, none
of the political parties want to get rid of this very tightly regulated system
that we have, and what is being proposed is basically complete deregulation,
getting rid of the surrender requirement and moving responsibility for granting
licences to local councils, as is the case in Scotland and in England.
Q299 Chairman:
This should clearly be a matter left to the Northern Ireland Assembly, when it
finally meets -----
Mrs Carruthers: Absolutely. There is overwhelming opposition to this in
Northern Ireland, so we are very much hoping the Minister will listen to that
as he is bringing his response.
Q300 Mr Fraser:
On the point you made to Rosie Cooper about reluctance to report crime, is there
any evidence that the cost of crime is being passed on to the consumer, i.e. -
and this is the information point you made - are the unit costs for alcohol
more expensive in Northern Ireland as a consequence than they are in the rest
of the United Kingdom, for example?
Mrs Carruthers: Any costs from
crime will be passed on in some shape or form.
I am not aware that the cost of alcohol in pubs in Northern Ireland is
any more expensive than in the rest of the UK.
Obviously, costs vary depending on the pub. The costs will be passed on, just as rates costs are passed on,
and our much higher insurance costs that we have in Northern Ireland. It would probably have an effect at the
margins.
Q301 Lady Hermon:
Nichola, I would just like to ask one question to know your view - and the
Federation view as well. You said on a
couple of occasions that a small group of pub owners would not be happy to
involve the PSNI, and on another occasion you referred to the sensitivities of some
people in reporting crime; and you said, in response to Christopher's
questions, that there is a reluctance to complain to the police. Do you think, and would the Federation be of
the view, that it would be changed if Sinn Fein were to join the policing
board, and urge other people from a Republican background to join the
police? Would that have a significant
change in the attitude of Federation members to reporting crime generally?
Mrs Carruthers: I am not sure
about the change from Federation members per se but from my own view I
would have thought it would because if Sinn Fein did join the policing board it
would be my view that there would be an awful lot more confidence across the
whole of Northern Ireland in reporting crime.
Q302 Chairman:
You have, if I may say so, been an exemplary witness, and we congratulate you
on fielding everything on your own. All
the others have had assistance and sidekicks, but you have faced it all. We are very grateful to you for saying that
you will do a survey because that will be helpful to us. We are not asking you to divulge names or
even locations, but an indication would be helpful because we want to make a
constructive report. We talked several
times about the business community, of which you are a part, collectively, and
individually your members; do you have a lot of participation in bodies like
CBI, the Federation of Small Businesses and so on?
Mrs Carruthers: From time to
time.
Q303 Chairman:
Are you affiliated to any of them?
Mrs Carruthers: Not formally,
no, but we would discuss and meet on matters of equal and joint concern.
Q304 Chairman:
So you will be familiar with Mr Mitchell, one of our earlier witnesses, from
the Federation? Yes. Are there any final questions from
colleagues, or is there a final point you would want to make?
Mrs Carruthers: I do not think
there is anything more I would like to say - just thank you very much for your
time. Hopefully, whatever I have said
has been useful.
Chairman: Extremely. Thank you very much indeed for coming. Thank you for what you are going to do. There may be some written questions we will
send to you; and equally there may be points when you go back and think, "I
wish I had dealt with that", so if that is the case, please feel free to write
to the Clerk. We look forward to the
beer tour with you later in the year!
