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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 886-vii House of COMMONS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
Organised Crime in Northern Ireland
Wednesday 7 June 2006 PAUL GOOGINS MP, MR NICK PERRY, and MR NIGEL HAMILTON Evidence heard in Public Questions 480 - 540
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
Oral Evidence Taken before the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on Wednesday 7 June 2006 Members present Sir Patrick Cormack, in the Chair Mr David Anderson Gordon Banks Mr Gregory Campbell Rosie Cooper Mr John Grogan Lady Hermon Dr Alasdair McDonnell Sammy Wilson ________________ Witnesses: Paul Goggins, a Member of the House, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Policing and Security at the Northern Ireland Office, Chairman of the Organised Crime Task Force (OCTF), Mr Nigel Hamilton, Head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, a member of the OCTF and Mr Nick Perry, Senior Director of Policing and Security at the Northern Ireland Office, Chairman of an OCTF strategy group, gave evidence.
Chairman: Can I welcome you, Minister. First of all, can I, on behalf of the Committee, congratulate you on your recent appointment. It is one that gave a lot of pleasure to your friends on both sides of the House and you have a pivotal and important assignment that we wish you well in discharging. It is also a great pleasure to see again Mr Nick Perry and Mr Nigel Hamilton who are with you. You are all most welcome. Thank you for allowing us to start a little earlier than we said but we are advised there is going to be a division at four o'clock. We would, as I mentioned to you a couple of weeks ago, like to have a brief session with you privately after the public session because much of the evidence we have received, of necessity, we had to receive in private and we will talk to you a little about that. I think even before I say anything else because there may be some people who will tune into this, I must thank Mr Sammy Wilson for representing the Committee on the mile run day and surviving it. Mr Campbell: Just! Q480 Chairman: He is slightly redder than normal but he seems to be more or less in tact. Stephen Hepburn is still running and we hope he will turn up later! Minister, have you anything that you would like to say at the beginning before we move into the questions? Paul Goggins: Perhaps just briefly. Clearly you are familiar already with my colleagues to the left and right of me and they will make a contribution in answer to some of the questions this afternoon. Simply to say at the outset, at the core of what the Government aims to do in Northern Ireland is of course to bring peace, prosperity and stability, and tackling organised crime is fundamentally important to that. There are of course many things in common between organised crime in Northern Ireland and in other parts of the UK but there are also differences, the connection with paramilitary clearly being one of them, the border between the north and south clearly being another. My belief for the few weeks that I have been in position is that I believe we have the structures in place to deal with that, particularly the task force but also the partnerships between the law enforcement agencies. If I might say, I think there are three early issues which seem to me clearly to need further work in the months ahead. One is to get effective understanding of the criminal markets that operate and we can work closely with GB colleagues in developing that. Secondly, I think to focus on the gangs rather more than the commodities. I think in the past we have been good at looking at the commodities but in fact the criminal gangs will move between commodities and it is they we need to focus on. Thirdly, and finally, and I think this is a very important task for me personally, to raise the profile of this whole business with the public and with the business community so that we have a real sense of shared responsibility. This is not something just for law enforcement, it is something that everybody needs to play their part in. Q481 Chairman: I think we welcome that statement, Minister, and we hope that when our report is published it will underline the extent of the problem and perhaps point the way to some solutions and obviously we will want to discuss that report with you. The Government, of course, will be responding to it formally but we will want to discuss that with you and the Secretary of State and we hope it will make a positive contribution towards bringing what you and I would call normality in the Province. By way of beginning, the Home Office has conducted an inquiry into, and you have just come from there so obviously you are familiar with these things, the economic and social harm caused by organised crime. I am not sure that report has yet been completed but the investigation has been underway for some time. What plans do you have to work in tandem with your former department on this? Paul Goggins: I think there is a need for close collaboration to understand better the levels of organised crime. People ask the question how much organised crime is there and it is very difficult to give an answer, much of it is unseen and hard to quantity, but we need to get better at the analysis, we need to work closely on that. I am particularly interested to work closely with Home Office colleagues on the issue of harm reduction because I am sure the Committee have noticed that perhaps the traditional way of focusing on success in relation to organised crime has been to count how many tonnes of Class A drugs we have been able to seize and how much cash we have been able to seize. Of course that is important, but actually the really important thing is how much harm has been prevented by the actions of the law enforcement agencies and we have a long way to go to be able to quantify what we mean by that harm reduction. I might say the work that has gone on in the Home Office is clearly very important but very early on, in fact the second day of my time in Northern Ireland, I paid a visit to the PSNI analysis centre and I was very impressed by the quality of the work going on there. They seem to be pioneering - it is still in the early stages - some very important work at the analysis centre, making that link between the operational work and the reduction of harm on the ground, the difference it makes to individuals, to communities and to the economy. I think that we will work closely with GB colleagues, we will I am sure learn from the Home Office but I think we also have something to offer from Northern Ireland. Q482 Chairman: Clearly, you are bringing yourself into the job and working yourself into it very quickly, I congratulate you. Have you had much to do yet with the Organised Crime Task Force which I gather is about to publish its 2006 annual report? Paul Goggins: That is right. On 19 June, a week on Monday, I will launch the annual report and the threat assessment and we will be gathering together a whole range of people from law enforcement but also more widely from the business community. I will be sending out a very strong message from that meeting and from the launch of that report about the fight against organised crime and the role of the ordinary citizen within that. I want to make it very plain to people that when you buy counterfeit cigarettes, you do not only do the harm you would normally do by smoking the cigarette but there is 160% more tar in that counterfeit cigarette and 80% more nicotine. If you choose to use perfume that is made up of urine then you need to know that. If you buy a DVD that is a pirate DVD, you may be contributing to paramilitary violence. We need to get that message across and I shall be choosing to do that very clearly. Q483 Chairman: I am very glad to hear that, I am sure all the committee will be glad to hear that because I do not want to put words in the mouths of my colleagues, although we are very impressed that there is an Organised Crime Task Force, I think we have all felt from time to time that perhaps the profile is not as high as it should be. Your assertion in effect you are going to do what you can to raise its profile is very welcome. Thank you for that. Paul Goggins: It might be appropriate to ask Nick to say something more about the strategy group, I chair the stakeholder group so I am involved in a wider range also. Mr Perry: If I can add to the point about the Home Office. Of course, the Home Office are members of the OCTF and in turn we are members of the Organised Crime Steering Group that the Home Office runs and the Home Office official who is now leading a lot of this policy work started off in the NIO. There is a lot of transfer of information. On the strategy group, which I chair, which is an operational group, what we are seeking to do is to integrate three areas of work. First is the issue of prioritising gangs, which the Minister referred to, using a methodology that all law enforcement agencies signed up to. Secondly, linking that to a problem solving approach. We spend a lot of our time discussing issues that have arisen in the course of operations and trying to solve those problems and making sure a whole range of Government effort is focused on key groups and issues. Thirdly, tasking and using the expert groups to create the tools that the agencies need to combat organised crime and that is our focus at the moment. Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. Q484 Mr Campbell: Could you inform us, Minister, as to what the Organised Crime Task Force is doing on an ongoing basis regarding the paramilitary involvement in organised crime at various levels? You have outlined some of the issues about the dangers to individuals who might come within their remit, what are the Task Force doing on an ongoing basis to target those paramilitary groups which appear to still be involved in violence and racketeering? Paul Goggins: The clear focus of the Organised Crime Task Force is organised crime and whoever is involved in that organised crime will be our target. I think recent evidence is that law enforcement will deliver the sharp end of that. If you take, for example, Jonesborough Market which, as Members of the Committee will know, was a disreputable centre for the sale of counterfeit goods, law enforcement moved in there in a very impressive way and dealt with that. A certain notorious family in South Armagh had a visit from a very well organised number of police officers and other representatives of law enforcement. I think the message is whoever you are, whatever organisation you are involved with, whether it is paramilitary or not, then law enforcement will be bearing down on you. Of course we take into account in all this the IMC reports. The latest report, the tenth - I will not lecture the Committee because you will all be well aware of the contents of that - does report continued involvement of paramilitary with organised crime. It notes some significant steps forward in terms of PIRA, although it acknowledges that individual members of PIRA may still be involved. We have some way to go but my assurance to the Committee is that whoever you are, whether or not you are paramilitary, if you are engaged in organised criminality then the focus will be on you. Q485 Mr Campbell: You mentioned the IMC report, the most recent report of the IMC indicated that in relation to both the Provisional IRA and the UVF, in the IRA some senior members remain involved in fuel laundering, money laundering, extortion and tax evasion and that the UVF did not see any significant impact on the behaviour of the UVF as a whole in relation to racketeering. Now it is obviously some months since that evidence was provided by the IMC, in terms of your brief has anything substantially altered? Paul Goggins: It is probably difficult for me four weeks in to draw any specific judgment about the very short timeframe. The distinction I do draw, based on the IMC report, is that whilst they acknowledge that individual members of PIRA may still be involved in criminal activity, they make it clear that the organisation itself and its leadership is not engaged in that, and actually anybody who is engaged is doing so out of step with the organisation. They also note that loyalist paramilitary are not desisting either from paramilitary violence or from organised crime. I find it deeply regrettable that UVF have made it clear that they will not say anything further on decommissioning until after 24 November. It is clear to me that there are differences there. Of course we await now the next report due in October of the IMC when we all hope that there will be further signs of progress. Q486 Mr Campbell: Is there any evidence, Minister, of paramilitary groups disparate from the loyalist groups and more cohesive than the republican groups, on either side, mutating or moving away from their previous type of activities and becoming more of a criminal empire whether as senior individuals or as groups organised within themselves? Paul Goggins: I am watching that very clearly because I see that as a huge challenge for all of us. If we are successful and paramilitary organisations move towards peace and desist from violence we would all applaud that. If then, as you said, it transmutes into organised criminal gangs because the infrastructure is there, the discipline and organisation, then of course we would face a fresh challenge. I think it is very important that we keep this pressure up throughout so that we do not allow that to happen, we do not allow those old infrastructures to become a new threat to the people of Northern Ireland. Q487 Lady Hermon: I am delighted with your appointment, Minister, to the Northern Ireland Office team and it is very good of you to come here so soon after appointment as a witness to give evidence. May I ask you about three separate topics. I was extremely concerned by evidence that was given to the Joint Committee on Human Rights in this House on 22 May by the Women's Aid Federation of Northern Ireland. Although it was anecdotal evidence they brought to the attention of the Committee their concerns that paramilitaries were involved in the trafficking of human beings, women, for all sorts of horrible reasons. Could you enlighten us a little bit about what your office intends to do and the extent of paramilitary involvement in human trafficking in Northern Ireland, either into the rest of the United Kingdom or staying in Northern Ireland itself. It is a very worrying dimension that the Committee had not heard of any evidence prior to that. Paul Goggins: I am very happy to respond to that. One of my previous responsibilities in the Home Office was for organised crime and that included human trafficking. I was very keen that we advanced this work and saw greater partnership between law enforcement and voluntary organisations. Next year is the 200th anniversary since the abolition of slavery --- Q488 Chairman: The slavery trade. Paul Goggins: --- the slave trade, I stand to be corrected, Chairman. An important landmark nonetheless and yet we have this new form of slavery which now faces us. Clearly I have made some inquiries in view of the evidence from Women's Aid and what comes through to me is that the issue of immigration, crime, human trafficking is certainly not at the level that it is elsewhere in the United Kingdom but it is certainly a more pressing issue than it was. It is encouraging, therefore, that the immigration service is putting in a permanent team, an enforcement team, in Belfast. Q489 Lady Hermon: How large is the permanent team? Paul Goggins: I am led to believe from memory it is initially half a dozen enforcement officers but that is a permanent presence there, whereas at the moment, of course, the enforcement is done from Liverpool. Let me say a little more. What has also come back to me is that there has been an increase in the number of female foreign nationals working in prostitution and there are now a greater number of brothels operating in Belfast. One of the things that has been said to me from the work the police have done is that none of the women who has been found have said that they have been forced into that position. They have claimed that they have done it, and are doing it, on a voluntary basis. Can I say my response to that is to be at least cautious, if not sceptical, because many of the women who are trafficked for the reason of sexual exploitation are bullied, threatened and intimidated by the people who bring them here and therefore many of them are not ready to say straight away that they are the subject of human trafficking. I will watch this very carefully. I certainly would be happy to see any specific evidence that Women's Aid or any other organisation has about this issue. I also await the full results of Operation Pentameter which has been a UK-wide police led operation to target the whole issue of women being trafficked for sexual exploitation. That has operated in Northern Ireland and we will get the results of that. In short, this is not a problem on the scale as it is, perhaps, elsewhere in the UK but it is a potential problem at the very least. I will be looking for any signs of any clear evidence and I will bring the full force of law enforcement to bear in Northern Ireland on this issue and make sure that if there are victims of human trafficking they get the support they need. Q490 Lady Hermon: At this stage, Minister, do you have evidence of paramilitary involvement either by loyalist paramilitaries or republicans in human trafficking? Paul Goggins: I have no evidence in front of me of paramilitary involvement in human trafficking but then, as I say, the evidence I have is that it is on a lower level and I will be watching very carefully. Q491 Lady Hermon: If I could just move you back slightly, a few moments ago in fact, you did mention the UVF - the Ulster Volunteer Force - and you are quite right in saying that they had issued a public statement in April indicating that there was not going to be any decommissioning by that organisation until at least after 24 November to see whether in fact an executive is set up. You will be familiar with the tenth report of the IMC which was very critical that there has been little tangible evidence of progress from the UVF. In the interim, if they have not moved on decommissioning, have they transmuted into anything else? Has the level of criminality by the UVF decreased? Is there any indication you can give of their current activities? If they are not going to decommission what else are they involved in at the present time? Paul Goggins: The most compelling evidence is contained there within the report which you have in front of you which is the statement from the IMC that the UVF are still involved in criminal activity. It will be the job of law enforcement in Northern Ireland to deal with that as best they are able. What we need, of course, is for the UVF and for all paramilitary organisations to decommission their weapons and to draw away from violence and towards peace. Q492 Lady Hermon: Does the Northern Ireland Office have a strategy to bring that about? Paul Goggins: Indeed there is a strategy there, that is a wider political strategy which we try to engage politicians of all parties in. That engagement is based on a very strong principle and that is the rule of law. All politicians in Northern Ireland, of course, should support the rule of law and that is a fundamental building block. Chairman: We would all say Amen to that. Q493 Sammy Wilson: On the issue of paramilitaries, this week the oversight commissioner has indicated that with the gathering of intelligence now being transferred to the security services and taken from the police that there is a danger and since there is an overlap between criminal gangs and terrorist gangs, very often they are one and the same, they sometimes carry out criminal actions to finance their terrorism. Are you satisfied that the police and the security services have got protocols in place which will ensure the flow of intelligence gathered by the security services to the police to enable them to carry out investigations against those paramilitaries who might be involved in terrorism and in organised crime? Paul Goggins: I think you are quite right, of course, that there is this overlap, the question is where is the appropriate home for national security intelligence. Patten was clear and the Government is clear that as we move to a normal society then that responsibility is a UK-wide responsibility and it should move. Of course there are a number of important steps to take before that happens. I will need to be content as the Minister responsible, of course; the chief constable will want to be content; the Secretary of State will want to be content and we will continue to look at that closely. The chief constable is closely engaged in those discussions. It would be an anomaly if national security intelligence remained with the chief constable in Northern Ireland when, of course, it does not rest with any other chief constable anywhere else. If I might say in relation to the oversight commissioner, I had a very useful discussion with him in my first meeting with him the other evening and in his report, which does bear some close reading on this issue, he does not actually say that we have made the wrong decision or we are going in the wrong direction, he merely notes that there has been some controversy about this, and indeed there has. For me normalisation means returning this to UK-wide responsibility. The chief constable, of course, will have to be satisfied that he is able to access the information and intelligence that he needs and he will not be prepared to sign off on this until he has got that assurance, and I will be closely engaged in that. Q494 Sammy Wilson: At present, Minister, all of the work which is required to ensure that flow of information has not been completed, is that what you are saying? Paul Goggins: Nick may want to comment on this. The work is ongoing and there are detailed discussions involving the chief constable and others in working out the detail of that but that work continues. Mr Perry: Simply to confirm what the Minister said, a great deal of detailed work is going on and it is making good progress. It will be completed long before the transfer takes place. Q495 Gordon Banks: I would like to move on to an area which I will classify as the involvement of professionals in organised crime. We have heard in evidence from PSNI and others about the involvement of what we might call professionals such as accountants, lawyers and financial advisers assisting those who are perpetrating organised crime. What steps can you tell us the Organised Crime Task Force have taken to counteract the involvement of such professionals aiding and abetting the carrying out of organised crime? Paul Goggins: Of course wherever that happens it is completely to be condemned by Government but also by the professional organisations of those professional people. I am aware the PSNI are involved in undertaking training with professional bodies concerned, and the Law Society, and I think that is to be welcomed. One particular initiative which I am taking, and I think this is an important step, is that some very important work is being undertaken by Sir Stephen Lander, who is the Chair of SOCA, in relation to the suspicious activity reports. These are reports which the financial services sector must make if they believe there is a suspicious activity in relation to financial dealings. Sir Stephen reviewed that because although it was working it was not working as well as it might do and I intend to launch that report in the near future in Northern Ireland and engage the financial services, the accountants and also the legal advisers so that we assert a very strong message which of course is that those organisations should be on the side of law and order and the police and other enforcement agencies will be mindful in supporting and rooting out any rotten apples in the barrel. Q496 Gordon Banks: You mentioned the PSNI working with organisations like the Law Society and you mentioned SOCA there as well. Are you aware of other organisations within the professional world that are having relationships in discussing the potential of this growth with organisations such as the Organised Crime Task Force, and what else are you as a Minister particularly doing? I know you mentioned some things that your predecessor has done because it is an issue which obviously is not hugely on the Richter scale at this point in time as much as PSNI have had limited success in locating people, but as organised crime becomes more sophisticated so does the need to try and hide the organised crime. The ancillary question to that is do you see that it is a potential field for growth as this organised crime develops? Paul Goggins: As I say, I think the full weight of law enforcement needs to be brought to bear against any rotten apples in the barrel and those professionals who engage in this kind of conduct should be prosecuted, should be dealt with, and that should serve as a warning to others that this should not happen. There is a sense, I hope I am not speaking out of turn as somebody new to Northern Ireland, that perhaps in the past there were too many nods and winks about things like this and I think what we are moving to now is a better co-ordinated system where the consensus loudly spoken is that all of us are on the side of law and order and we will not tolerate any activity of this kind. I think we need to make sure in every way we can, through the task force and through the individual professional association to bear down. Q497 Chairman: Is not fundamental to the success of that, Minister, getting rid of this absurd concept of victimless crime because there is no such thing as a victimless crime? We have had this trotted out to us from time to time. Would you agree with me that some of these people nodded and winked because they connived the concept of victimless crime and this must be dealt with. Paul Goggins: Absolutely, I agree with you very, very strongly. I mentioned before the examples of the impact on health, people who smoke counterfeit cigarettes. Every pound that is stolen is a pound that is taken away from somebody else's savings or livelihood, it is somebody else's job put at risk or somebody else's pension put at risk. We have to make this point: there is no such thing as a victimless crime, there is always a victim and all of us stand to lose as a society unless we grip this kind of conduct, and I am determined that we will. I say I am determined, I have come in and inherited a structure and framework in which this is already happening. Q498 Dr McDonnell: It is good to see you here, Minister. I hope the four weeks have been worthwhile. Paul Goggins: They have been full and very interesting. Chairman: You have obviously been on a very steep learning curve and you seem to be doing rather well. Q499 Dr McDonnell: We have talked many times in the Committee about the Organised Crime Task Force, the stakeholder group and the various components going into it. Do you see any benefits in extending that stakeholder group to include an even wider network? I am thinking in terms of people involved in the petrol retail trade or people in the licensed trade or people in the building trade. Secondly, that stakeholder group would only normally meet twice a year but, given the fairly fluid nature of organised crime, would it not be useful if that group were to meet and collaborate more than twice a year? Paul Goggins: I respect the work of those who have gone before me in terms of the review that has been carried out, because it has been a thorough review with clear conclusions and makes absolutely clear the difference between the stakeholder group, the strategy group and the expert groups in particular areas. I see the stakeholder group as a real opportunity to do the kind of thing we have been discussing which is to build that consensus and engage people from a variety of different backgrounds. I know the membership of that group has been extended to include more people from the business community which I think is very welcome, representatives of the police board, which is very welcome, and I will be making my own assessment, because I have not chaired any of these meetings yet, as to whether that grouping is wide enough or whether it needs to be widened still further and I will make a judgment about that. Q500 Chairman: You take on board the point about regularity of meetings? Paul Goggins: Twice a year on the face of it does not sound very often but my experience is that it is what happens between the meetings that really matters, so I will be looking to make some kind of judgment about that. It seems to me that there is at least an argument that it should be more frequent but, as I say, I need to respect the work that has gone before and make my own judgments not too hastily. I certainly would not be against a more regular meeting if that was appropriate. Q501 Dr McDonnell: Would you intend, just beyond that on the task force itself, to widen it to include academics, advisers and economists, as was suggested by Professor Goldstock? Paul Goggins: I am certainly prepared to consider whether or not the group is as wide as it should be, respecting as I say the judgments that have been made thus far and I will not be making any hasty judgment. The only note of caution I would put in is if you make the group so wide and so all-encompassing, then you need to hire a big hall and you do not make much progress. I want it to be the right size to get the right level of serious engagement but I do not start from the position of wanting to exclude people, I want all the right people to be there and I want senior people to be there so that what we work at together resonates down the organisation as a whole. Q502 Dr McDonnell: From previous evidence we have gathered that the Organised Crime Task Force is in the process of developing assets recovery and strategy which will join up a lot of the work which has gone on. Can you give us some suggestions as to why you think you are doing that? Is there a gap there to be filled, in other words, and what will the main provisions of that strategy be? How is that strategy coming about and what will it add to the equation? Paul Goggins: The asset recovery work, which the task force will bring together, is very important and it is important because financial investigation should be at the heart of every criminal investigation that takes place. If somebody has made some money and they have made it legally and they have put that money in the bank or into property then the message now is we are going to have that back and of course through the proceeds of Crime Act, the creation of the Asset Recovery Agency, we now have the powers and systems and methods to enable us to do that in a way, frankly, that we have never been able to do before. The benefit of the task force having a particular group that is working on this is it brings all the agencies together with that common theme and it should almost be rule of thumb from now on that any agency that comes across any form of criminal activity or potential ill-gotten gains there should be a referral to the Asset Recovery Agency, there should be financial investigation from the police and we should be pursuing the assets as well as dealing with any criminal offences that may have been committed. Q503 Dr McDonnell: Some of us have admired the very dramatic seizures of the Criminal Assets Bureau in the south and the results they were able to achieve there. Do you think that we can get to a point where the Asset Recovery Agency will be every bit as successful? Paul Goggins: I think we can and I think the results of the Asset Recovery Agency itself so far in Northern Ireland are very impressive. A quarter of the resource and the staff power of the Asset Recovery Agency is focused on Northern Ireland, that is the whole UK but it is focused on Northern Ireland, and I think that is a very welcome investment from the Asset Recovery Agency and you will know of some of the assets that have been frozen as a result of their activities. I think there is good co-operation with the Criminal Assets Bureau and that is helpful. Clearly the Criminal Assets Bureau operates in a different framework from the Asset Recovery Agency. Are there things that we can learn? I am sure that there are and, as you probably know, Government is looking very closely at asset recovery in general and the Asset Recovery Agency to see if there are ways in which we can make some further improvements. Q504 Dr McDonnell: You are telling us that in fact you will learn from the CAB and bring changes? Paul Goggins: It operates in a different context but I am sure there are things we can learn. We do not start from a position of being too far down the field. I think we can be very pleased with the start that the Asset Recovery Agency has made and the seizures that it has made so far. Q505 Chairman: You clearly want to build up what has been done in the way of co-operation across the border, do you not? Paul Goggins: Absolutely, that north-south co-operation at every level is --- Q506 Chairman: Crucial. Paul Goggins: The other thing I want, as we all do, is to turn some of these frozen assets into cash which can then be recycled back and under the incentivisation scheme can be put back on the front line. It is still very early days but we need to stay patient and strong in that task and make sure that we win those battles. Chairman: I am sure you will. Q507 Lady Hermon: Can I focus a little bit on the Asset Recovery Agency. It has done sterling work but it does strike me, and this is a personal view, that a huge amount of the budget of the Asset Recovery Agency is eaten up in the administration of the person's estate and what they are administering. How could that be reduced? How could the Asset Recovery Agency be made much more effective? I am disappointed by what you have just touched. There is an expectation in the community that there will be a profit at the end of this. We have patiently waited for a profit to come out of the Assets Recovery Agency and not a single penny has yet been invested to my understanding in Northern Ireland by the Asset Recovery Agency, not through its fault but there is something wrong with the mechanism and the cost of administering estates, is that correct? Paul Goggins: I think there are a couple of problems. Because we are still in the relatively early days of the Asset Recovery Agency, some of the action that they have taken to freeze assets has yet to result in those assets being turned into cash and obviously people are fighting legal battles, they do not want to lose their ill-gotten gains and they are prepared to fight for them. What we have got to show is the resolve to stay in there and win through on some of those cases and turn those assets into cash which then recycles back into the organisation in the way that you have said. I think we have got to be confidant in the organisation and what it is doing and be slightly patient. At the same time, we have got to do whatever we can to speed up the process. There are things that stand in the way and the Asset Recovery Agency have made a number of recommendations, some of them quite technical, for ways in which the process can be speeded up and clearly Government will need to look very closely at that so we do not allow obstacles to stand in the way of us not just seizing those assets but turning them into real money. Q508 Lady Hermon: It is an issue of an area that we might look to make more effective and efficient. Paul Goggins: Indeed. Q509 Lady Hermon: So that is a commitment? Paul Goggins: It is a commitment to make asset recovery and proceeds of crime legislation work and work more effectively. This is so important. It is important because it is the right thing to do, it is also vital in terms of public confidence, people want those assets to back into money that is put into services. Q510 Sammy Wilson: Minister, already the police in Northern Ireland, because they can seize assets where there has been a criminal prosecution, have had money recycled into the police service. If it can done through the mechanism where police seize assets and then who would get a certain percent of it, why has that not been possible in the Asset Recovery Agency? Paul Goggins: While some of the assets the police seize are cash assets which are more easily recyclable, the kinds of assets which the Asset Recovery Agency are freezing are often properties and there is legal contention around it. Because they are new powers there is a number of battles taking place about it, but the police have been able to do that. One of the reasons is because the police in Northern Ireland have invested in financial investigation very heavily. They currently have 26 financial investigators in Northern Ireland. I can tell you that is not the level in the police forces around the UK, it is a big investment and I think it will pay off and they will get back 50% of the assets recovered which can then go into further development capacity and financial investigation. Q511 Chairman: Perhaps you should do the same with the Asset Recovery Agency. Mr Perry: This year is the first year that the Home Office incentivisation scheme and the ARA is able to help, so I hope this year and next year we will see some benefits. Chairman: When you come next year we will want a large pool of money on the table. Q512 Gordon Banks: If I could take the Minister back, this links back into the earlier question I was asking about professionals. We have heard some comments through our evidence process that potential criminals are using their assets to employ extensive and expensive legal and financial advisers to counteract the claims on their potential ill-gotten gains. Have you any evidence of that? Have you got an opinion on how that can be curtailed? Paul Goggins: This is a real problem and those who frame the proceeds of crime legislation anticipated that it would be, which was why initially the legislation did not allow the assets that had been seized to be used to fund the defence of that particular individual, that was to be left to other forms of financial support, legal aid and so on. The problem came in the working out of that that either people were above the threshold for legal aid, and therefore could not access it, or for some other reason. There was a review of that and the decision made to allow some access to those seized assets, albeit a limited amount. There has to be a specific element of the seized assets which is excluded for this purpose which effectively gives a budget for the individual to defend themselves. There is the oversight of the court and the disbursements need to be reasonable. Of course we have an obligation to make sure that they have a fair trial, so that is an obligation on us. Although none of us like the idea of these assets being used in that way in the ideal world it probably is the best in terms of balancing out everything. Chairman: Of course, even in Northern Ireland the accused is innocent until proven guilty! Q513 Lady Hermon: How large is the budget that is set aside for legal services? Paul Goggins: It will be different in different cases. It will depend on the case. A case will need to be made by the defence for the kind of expenditure that will be allowed. The court will make a decision on that. In fact, the Asset Recovery Agency has the power to challenge that and, if successful, can reduce the amount of disbursement down to 65% of what was being requested. It is a tricky area. Of course this has only been in since 1 January this year so we will need to keep it under review, and no doubt colleagues in the Home Office will do that to see how it works out in practice. It seemed to be necessary given the practical pressures we were under. Chairman: We shall also want to keep it under review. Q514 Rosie Cooper: Could I ask you about telephone intercepts currently not being allowed, and the outcome of the Home Office review on the electronic surveillance which is fairly long overdue, I think. Also in the same sentence can I ask you to tell us whether you are going to review the Proceeds of Crime Act to allow the Assets Recovery Agency to become an integral part of those investigative teams? Paul Goggins: On the intercept, I cannot add anything in terms of where the Home Office is up to in terms of the review, although I know the Prime Minister has made it absolutely clear, as has the Home Secretary, the previous Home Secretary and Ministers. In principle there is no objection to using intercept evidence, the problem is how do you find a practical model to enable you to do so in a way which makes a difference but which does not compromise the sources from which the information comes. There is always the danger, of course, if you introduce a model that then the criminal element will use other means of communication once they know that kind of evidence could be used against them. This is not one-way street intercept evidence, it is more complex than it first appears to be, and that is what the Home Office is thinking about. In principle it has been made very clear that there are no objections to the principle, it is the practicality of working out a model that will work. On the second, clearly there is this review going on in terms of asset recovery at the current time. The Asset Recovery Agency have made a number of recommendations. My view of it is that the important thing is that the Asset Recovery Agency is part of the team and is so well connected to the other law enforcement agencies that there are referrals made and that people work together on this. All the evidence I have seen so far in Northern Ireland is that is what is happening in practice, the Asset Recovery Agency are getting the referrals. There is this wider review going on. I am sure the question you have raised will be one that is considered within that context. Q515 Rosie Cooper: I think in the evidence that we have received some people have suggested that there is a mismatch between that which is happening and that which is referred, and that process is not necessarily flawless. Paul Goggins: I am very happy if Nick wants to comment further on that. The point has been made here in earlier sessions that you have had this is a view that people have. No doubt those views will be considered within the review that is going on and a conclusion will be reached. From my point of view the important thing is that the Agency is activity engaged as a partner, and that seems to be working very well in Northern Ireland. Mr Perry: My understanding is that the Agency was happy that it was sufficiently integrated and they did not want to follow up Professor Goldstock's suggestion originally that they be part of the investigative team but it is something which is kept under review. Q516 Rosie Cooper: I will be interested to see how that pans out. Talking about Professor Goldstock, there is also a recommendation about bank notes being repatriated and I wonder what the current situation is and what the police service's view of that is currently? Paul Goggins: You were looking at Nick when you started that question. Rosie Cooper: Yes. Q517 Chairman: Bit of deft passing! Mr Perry: I think the issue there was partly about the fact that bank notes of a certain type are repatriated to their parent banks to increase the numbers of cash movements and therefore increase the level of vulnerability. I think the police are happier now that they have a good practical system with the banks and the security companies, including a joint comptroller, a risk analysis framework and a feeling of more sensible planning of cash movements so that repatriation of bank notes per se is not the issue. There is obviously still a big issue about security of vehicles moving around the place but repatriation is not one of the main drivers of that. Paul Goggins: If I could just add to that. My early introduction to the complexity of banking and bank notes in Northern Ireland was quite an eye-opener with five different banks all operating different bank notes. I think the key thing is the concern about cash in transit robberies which clearly there have been. I looked at the figures and for 2003 there were 105 cash in transit robberies, in 2005 that had gone down to 64 and that was largely because of the close collaboration between the police and the private security people including joint working in the control room. Now the key thing is to make sure that we continue to make improvements in that and in my view that will require further co-operation of that kind. Q518 Chairman: It is not just the numbers it is the amounts as well, is it not? Mr Perry: Indeed. Q519 Chairman: We all know about one quite big one. Mr Perry: Indeed. Paul Goggins: Fair point. Q520 Rosie Cooper: Can I just ask a final question about the private sector inspector generally and the view they should not be used in the charity sector. I think most Members of the Committee were shocked/surprised that there was no charity commissioner in Northern Ireland and it seems that this is a field which those people who exploit this area have plenty of room in which to do that. It was rather disappointing to see that this is not an area that you are going to move into. Paul Goggins: Let me make a comment about the independent private security inspectors general issue in general. Nick might want to comment on the issue of the Charity Commission because obviously there are plans to move forward on that in Northern Ireland. I am quite interested to see this model, and I know there have been a number of pilots, I think there are six pilots operating, particularly in relation to the construction industry to try and bring more transparency and scrutiny into that whole business of the contract and so on before any work takes place so that there is a more secure environment for that contract to be worked out so we bear down against extortion and other illegal activities. I think the plan is to roll that model further forward a bit, Nick, you might want to comment in relation to the charity sector. Just as a general point, it seems to me in these early days still that there is an emerging need to do something quite radical and bold about the private security industry in general in Northern Ireland. In a sense one of the vacuums that there is in Northern Ireland is the lack of a credible, well-regulated, properly licensed private security industry, and that is something that I am already taking a very close interest in so that you get that level of scrutiny and oversight without these backdoor deals or extortion rackets taking place within what otherwise would be legitimate economic activity. It is an area of particular interest. Q521 Rosie Cooper: I think you are doing a great job but it is a fact that they are not really moving into the charity sector. Mr Hamilton: Chairman, maybe I should say by way of introduction that across the devolved areas - and I know this is an area of interest to this Committee - we are currently working on seven pieces of legislation, five of which will be introduced. That is four pieces of primary legislation and one piece of supporting legislation, and hopefully enacted by this House by next March across charities, waste, road freight, liquor licensing, petroleum, et cetera. In respect of the charities sector, the Minister will intend immediately following final consideration of the Charities Bill, which is going through the House at the moment, to publish in July a draft Order in Council which hopefully will complete its passage by February next year so we will then have a full blown Charities Commission in operation. That will have about 16 staff, including financial staff to investigate a range of issues there. We would learn all the lessons obviously from the Charities Commission which currently exists in England and Wales. We can talk further about that should the Committee be interested. In relation to IPSIG, as the Minister said we have run six fairly small pilot projects exclusively in the housing and education sectors. These have proved, Chairman, very positive so far in the sense that interestingly in those particular pilot schemes there were no approaches from paramilitary organisations in respect of extortion et cetera. That has been reviewed and we have decided we want to run further into other sectors, particularly roads, transport and health, again just to quickly learn some lessons, and out of that we will have a model that we will want to apply across all the public sector construction projects that we have. That we would also hope to roll out in due course, to those capital projects, particularly, we would think being undertaken by the voluntary sector in which Government grant was involved. If we were involved in construction projects in each of the sectors that I mentioned or were grant aiding major construction projects in the voluntary sector we would require the final IPSIG model. I think, Chairman, you would prefer to call it a contract model rather than IPSIG, which sounds awful. Q522 Chairman: That would be preferable. We are in favour of the speaking of plain English. Mr Hamilton: That would be our intention. We have just finalised this in terms of the model that we will eventually settle on. Q523 Lady Hermon: A very quick question. It is a point which I think needs some clarification and, Mr Hamilton, you are ideally suited and qualified, I am sure, to clarify this. When the Committee received evidence on 3 May this year in relation to this very issue about the loophole in the charities legislation that was being exploited by paramilitaries, the witness - who was very helpful indeed - was Mr Wall - and I am quoting here - said that the Revenue had identified some cases where "... charities had been set up as vehicles for tax avoidance and that sham charities had been established to avoid stamp duties, and that one charity had been set up to receive large gift shares, which attracted 40% tax relief. They estimate that has a cost of £14 million and that case is currently under investigation". I am concerned at the wider public - since it was a public session - who give very generously, we are all aware of this in Northern Ireland, who may be very concerned that the charity of their choice which is entirely bona fides may be the one under investigation. Could I ask you to identify that charity to avoid that sort of concern that the wider public do now have? Mr Hamilton: Chairman, I could not because that action has been taken by Customs and Revenue colleagues in relation to taxation issues rather than my side of the House. I will happily go and find out and advise the Committee privately. Chairman: I think perhaps we will leave that for a moment and talk about that privately because I can see I have a nervous clerk on my side who is always motivated by those two words sub judice. Perhaps we could return to that privately later. It is not something that I am shutting off. Lady Hermon: It is a genuine concern. Chairman: It is a very genuine concern. I am sure the Minister has taken it on board and we will explore it a little later. Sammy Wilson: Minister, I welcome the point which you made earlier on that something needs to be done about the private security industry and also the assurance which Nigel Hamilton has given us that legislation has been prepared which will include a number of pieces of legislation but there were about four different areas that people drew to our attention. The first one was by the Petrol Retail Group. When they came along, these were their words, "A robust licensing system would make petrol retailers better able to resist the pressure of the criminal gangs", and they have been asking for this for years now. Chairman: Our predecessor committee also asked, I might say. Sammy Wilson: It was one of the sessions where a great deal of frustration came through that something which they believed should have been within the grasp of Government, could have been done many years ago, was not done and now we welcome the announcement which Nigel has made that there should be something coming through in the Autumn session. Could you outline for us what changes you do envisage when making the new legislation, and I assume that we will have silent hearings in this Committee before hand. The one thing that would be devastating for those who have been campaigning is to find that a weak piece of legislation comes through which does not address the problems which they have identified. Q524 Chairman: Can I say, before you reply to that, the Secretary of State has also admitted that it would be appropriate for this Committee to look at certain pieces of legislation draft, particularly before devolution. We do think this is an important role that this Committee can play and so I very much hope that the pieces of legislation to which Mr Hamilton referred will be referred to us so that we can quickly and diligently look at it and see if there are any problems that we can spot. Paul Goggins: Given that the Secretary of State said he believes that is the right thing to do, I have no hesitation in saying we should do it and we will make sure the arrangements are in place, particularly for a longstanding issue. Nigel may want to comment on the detail of this, but my understanding is that the key measure that we will introduce is that where at the moment the Health and Safety Executive are responsible for the licensing system for all the petrol tankers who move the fuel, in future their Health and Safety Executive will also be responsible for licensing all petrol stations so that you will have one properly integrated system with one accountable body who will run the whole system and it should work much better. Mr Hamilton: That is exactly what was proposed. It is intended to publish a consultative document in fact, I think the previous minister, Angela Smith, made a written statement a few weeks ago to this intent. What we would then have is the Health and Safety Executive responsible for tankers on the road, for oil terminals and for the licensing of petroleum stations which at the moment is the responsibility of the district councils. We have a consistency across Northern Ireland. That is putting it together into a single authority. I think there is a second stage which we clearly need to get to which is to see how much more robust that regulatory authority needs to be. So the first stage would be to pull these functions together into the Health and Safety Executive. The next stage, which we also want to get to, which will not be this year, is to see how much more robust those arrangements should be. Q525 Sammy Wilson: That is one of the problems because the sanctions appear, even where there is regulation of the tankers at present, to be meaningless or certainly not in any way dissuading those who are engaged in those kinds of activities. We had evidence given to us here where tankers can be seized one day and the operators are back on the road again the next day. I am a bit disappointed to hear that you are saying whilst the legislation may set up one regulatory body for the whole of the industry we are going to have to wait for the robustness of their activities. For how long? Why is it that the legislation will not be able to bring in the kind of sanctions as well that new regulatory body can focus on? Paul Goggins: Can I say, Chairman, I do not have ministerial responsibility for the issue you are raising in terms of the licensing but I think the message is fairly clear from Members of the Committee that they see the two issues as being fundamentally joined together and I think there will be a need for some prior oversight to this Committee. Sammy Wilson: Minister, I think the message that must come from the Committee is that there will be grave disappointment from those who have seen their businesses destroyed and the industry in Northern Ireland practically taken over in certain areas by paramilitaries if, after having waited for all of these years, all we have is an umbrella regulatory body but the teeth for that body will not be supplied for maybe another two or three years as well. There will be grave disappointment and I do not think it will help in the fight against organised crime. Can I just take one other one and that is the transport industry where the transport operating licensing system in the GB has not been applied in Northern Ireland and, therefore, where there have been sanctions here, where there is a record of criminal activities licences can be withdrawn, the ability to operate can be withdrawn, that has not happened in Northern Ireland. I take it that part of this legislation we are talking about will include a body similar to this and will that legislation not just be setting up a body but introducing the sanctions that body can impose? Q526 Chairman: And will specifically address the problem of the road taxis, of which we gather there are quite a considerable number doing things other than taxis normally do. Paul Goggins: Do you mind if I ask Nigel to answer this. Mr Hamilton: I said, Chairman, that we were working on seven pieces of legislation and the two we did not address, obviously, were the question of how we are going to further develop the petrol licensing system and the second one to introduce into Northern Ireland a road freight regime exactly the same as happens in the rest of the United Kingdom. The intention will be to bring forward proposals next year in that context. In the meantime there is an immediate issue around the repute of drivers because at this point in time the legislation does not allow the issue of repute in respect of financial standing et cetera of drivers to be considered as part of the licensing system. We hope that in another piece of legislation earlier this year we will actively be able to plug that particular gap immediately. Clearly the intention is that we will go for a road freight licensing system which replicates exactly that which is happening in the rest of the United Kingdom. Q527 Chairman: And the taxis? Mr Hamilton: Chairman, next month we will be publishing another one of the other pieces of legislation. Paul Goggins: We had a prior agreement that if taxes came up Nigel would answer. Mr Hamilton: Chairman, the taxi legislation consultation will start later this month and the intention is that it will be fully in operation and have reached Privy Council by March next year. The licensing system will be in terms of drivers, vehicles and services and to prevent drivers and operators operating without proper licence. That will be hopefully published later this month. Q528 Sammy Wilson: Can I ask on the transport legislation, one of the things which some of the transport companies said to us was that there were those who were quite happy to use illegal diesel which of course meant that they were under-cutting those who were not prepared to do this. In this new legislation you are talking about you have mentioned the record of drivers but will there also be the ability, as there is in the rest of the United Kingdom, where a company has been found to be using illegal fuel that the traffic commissioner can revoke its licence or are we going to have to wait for that as well? Mr Hamilton: It will be the intention that that which is missing in the legislation will be introduced in the legislation so that sort of offence would very much be considered in the granting or non granting of a licence. Q529 Chairman: Can we move on, I want to bring some more colleagues in, to liquor licensing. We have had a fair amount of evidence and we would like to know what checks you are going to make to ensure that the new district councils will vigorously and responsibly enforce the new regime? Paul Goggins: As we move forward with the RPA process and the new seven district councils are brought into operation what we want to do is make sure that the new licensing process is open much more to democratic accountability and public scrutiny. The problem is when the decision making process about licensing is so far removed from the communities that are affected by the impact of those licensing decisions then you have a problem. We want to make sure that distance is reduced and there is some real scrutiny and proper democratic accountability there. There will be more flexibility in the system but hopefully also more democracy and then the key thing is to make sure that the law enforcement agencies do strictly apply the law and where people contravene the licence they have then they should be dealt with and, if necessary, they should have that licence revoked. It is more accountability but stronger enforcement of the legislation. Q530 Chairman: Have you taken on board the ancillary point that was brought quite forcefully to our attention. There is at the moment a real financial value in a licence and people legitimately expect when they are planning retirement and all the rest of it to be able to realise that. That is absolutely legal, it is above board, it is the way the thing works at the moment. It was brought to our notice that the new system could remove at a stroke that asset from many perfect, good law abiding individuals who had been relying on it. Can you give us some assurance that there will be some thought given to compensation, not for chains but for individuals? Paul Goggins: I can certainly give you the assurance I will give it more thought because this is the first time that I have actually heard this issue, therefore I will need to give it further thought. Nigel may know more about it. Mr Hamilton: Chairman, I do not pretend to be an expert in liquor licensing. It is the intention that the Minister responsible will want to make a statement again in terms of the way ahead. This will be a two stage process. The first stage would be the issues around the changing arrangements for liquor licensing as the Minister has outlined. I think the Committee had the benefit of a further submission from DSD on that. There were still contentious issues around surrendering licences, around opening hours and children. I think Minister Hanson is currently considering those. That is the first of the two stage process. The second stage would be that this responsibility would transfer to the new councils, not to the existing district councils but to the new councils following the review of public administration. In that context, quite clearly it is very important that the Department has a very strong oversight of what is going on in terms of how the councils will exercise those responsibilities. The department will issue statutory guidance as to how those councils should operate. Chairman: I am sure you will but I do hope the point that I have made will be taken on board when you are framing the licence. Q531 Mr Campbell: On the statutory guidance that Nigel has just mentioned, obviously under the RPA it could well be the case that you may have one or more of the super councils upon which a single political party has a considerable influence, whose attitude to law and order may be at best described as ambiguous. If that were the case, that political party had either control of the council or 40%, say, membership of the council and were somewhat reluctant to enforce against, for example, some form of misdemeanours or repeated misdemeanours, how would the guidance work in that circumstance? Mr Hamilton: Chairman, I think it is very difficult for me to speculate as to how it would work because we have not drawn it up yet. The guidance would very much be based on the guidance which exists at the moment in England and Wales with the checks and balances that are there. I think, to be honest, those are the sorts of issues we would need to give further consideration to, to make sure that there is consistency on application. I would not want to mislead the Committee by suggesting that we had thought our way through all those at this point in time. Paul Goggins: Although I think, and I am straying beyond my ministerial territory here --- Q532 Chairman: We will protect you. Paul Goggins: --- it is important, of course, that the decision is one that is made by the district council but the licence then, of course, is something which comes under wider scrutiny. If people are flouting the licence that is a matter for the law enforcement agencies, the police, and it will be for the police to be able to take action about that and to take action to have the licence varied or revoked. Although the decision rests with the district council, the whole thing does not rest with them in terms of pursuit of making sure that people follow what is written into that. Chairman: I can see something that you cannot see which is that in the House we are on to the final wind-up speech, therefore a division is fairly imminent. I would like to bring in fairly quickly Dr McDonnell. Dr McDonnell: Two very quick points I want to re-emphasise, we have already touched on one. The councils at present - and I am referring to Belfast which is roughly the same size, give or take, as any one of the seven councils - at the moment have responsibility for entertainment licensing and various inputs into the licensing of bars and places of public entertainment. They have not much influence at the end of the day and there is a serious concern out there that that situation prevails. There is a serious worry that in fact we would end up - to use a colloquialism - groping in the dark in terms of the new licensing laws. I would emphasise that again, I do not think we can step over it. There is a serious fear that we move from the frying pan into the fire or maybe worse. The concern is that the situation should not deteriorate. The second point is - and I think we need to deal with it because, again, it is causing serious public concern - currently I hear this is worth £150,000 in Northern Ireland and for many people who are single pub operators, single bar operators rather than chains, that is their pension. That is the same point the Chairman made and, Minister, I know this is probably on the margins of your territory but I think these two issues are important and we have had strong representations, that is why I have come back on them. Q533 Chairman: Could I just ask you to take those on board because I do want to bring in David Anderson. Paul Goggins: Just one sentence, for the record, we will certainly take that issue that you have both made very powerfully and give it further consideration. Chairman: I am very grateful to you and I am sure that many people will be glad to have that on the record. Q534 Mr Anderson: Minister, one of the things which has frustrated this Committee as much as this concept of victimless crime is the constant reference from witnesses we have heard to the sentencing regime in Northern Ireland. The chief constable said that the level of deterrent in Northern Ireland is often perceived as not comparable with that in the rest of the UK. Tom Wilson from the Freight Transport Association said that the penalties do not fit the crime. Val Smith from the Road Haulage Association said that these are derisory sentences. We know that the Department has set up a sentencing review, can you give us an idea of where you are with that? Paul Goggins: Yes. The issue about whether people get a stiff enough sentence is, of course, an issue that is not just confined to Northern Ireland, there is a wider debate throughout, but there is the framework review that you mentioned which is ongoing. My colleague, David Hanson, I expect will make some announcement about that in the fairly near future but of course within that there will be consideration of some of the new sentences that were part of the 2003 Act on extended sentences and also the indeterminate sentence for public protection. These are actively being considered and if they are introduced they will then open up the possibility for longer sentences. I had a quick and early look at this issue of comparability between them. There are always dangers, of course, in making these comparisons but actually broadly sentencing is on a par as between Northern Ireland and England and Wales. There may be differences in different areas but overall I would say there is a broad comparison although clearly the chief constable has a view about this and I will need to look ever more closely at any evidence he brings. I have just looked at some of the recent sentences, for example, just to give mention to two or three: a five year custodial sentence for blackmail and 12 year custodial sentence for somebody possessing drugs with intent to supply, a 15 year sentence for a scheduled robbery. These are stiff sentences for very serious offences and clearly that is what the public would expect. Of course at the same time there is effective community punishment and so on for people who commit less serious offences. Q535 Mr Anderson: Will that comparability be part of the review or will it be reported in the review? Do you think that if you can show clearly that there is not a difference, then that has got to go some way towards helping people? The other thing is whether or not it has been considered that a crime which is committed and is directly connected with organised crime, are you looking to making that an additional factor in advising judges on how to hand out sentences? Paul Goggins: As I say, David Hanson will be coming forward with proposals based on the review in the near future. I do not think he will be aiming to make the sentences necessarily just the same because what he will be bringing forward is what is appropriate for Northern Ireland. What I can say is, looking at the evidence, currently they are broadly similar. Q536 Chairman: I think Mr Anderson's point about comparisons with organised crime being an aggregating factor is very important. Paul Goggins: Perhaps if I could come on to that. It is the case at the moment that the court can take into account the fact that somebody who has been involved in organised crime can take that into account as an aggregating factor, that can already happen. Whether there should be something stronger in the legislation that it must be taken into consideration or expressed in some other way again, this is something that has been and will be considered as part of the review and my colleague will be bringing forward proposals on that in the near future. Chairman: We are very close to a division, are there any other questions that any colleague wishes to ask in this public session? Q537 Lady Hermon: One particular issue which has been raised by a number of witnesses is the difficulty in dealing with paramilitary involvement in any criminal activity is the fear the witnesses very genuinely have about coming forward and giving evidence. Minister, you will know, because I think you were the responsible minister at the time, that the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which you just alluded to, did make provisions for non-jury trials and did apply to Northern Ireland where there is a real and present danger of intimidation to witnesses during trials. That is in force, it is on the statute book, why in heaven's name has the Northern Ireland Office not made any statement or given any encouragement to prosecute, to use and avail of an already existing system which would help witnesses and encourage them to come forward and give evidence in tackling serious organised crime in Northern Ireland? Paul Goggins: You are quite right to mention the fact that there is that provision within the Criminal Justice Act 2003. I am not sure I would need to check as to whether it has ever been used consequent to that coming into force. Lady Hermon: It has never been used in Northern Ireland. Chairman: You are talking to a law lecturer,you know. Q538 Lady Hermon: Not for the past 20 years anyway. Paul Goggins: I am not sure it has been used at all as a result of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, let alone in Northern Ireland. Q539 Lady Hermon: May I suggest, Minister, since you were responsible at that time that some initiative is made to make use of what would be very valuable for witnesses who wish to come forward but who are really in peril of their lives and feel in peril of their lives to do so when we have very sophisticated organised crime in Northern Ireland. It does strike me that it is one of those provisions, it is already there, would you as a Minister make sure that some activity is put into the system to avail of what is there? Paul Goggins: In response to Lady Hermon, I share her view that there are circumstances in which it is important that there is the provision for a non-jury trial, that provision has been made within the Criminal Justice Act and there is already the provision in Northern Ireland that you mentioned. Obviously consideration of these things is ongoing but there are sometimes circumstances in which that is necessary for the reasons that you say, that people are sometimes frightened for their lives and although it is necessary, of course, to offer witness protection and other support in an attempt to get a jury trial, because that is the best form of trial in a democratic society, nonetheless there would be circumstances when jury-less trials are necessary. Q540 Chairman: As we draw this formal session to a close, could I thank you very much indeed. I do not want to sound patronising, Minister, but you have not been there long and it seems to me that you have really mastered your brief fairly substantially. We are grateful for your frank answers, and particularly grateful to you for saying that you will take on board some of the important points that have been brought to our notice and we have now passed on to you. We hope that when we publish our report you will find it helpful in furthering the work that you do. Thank you and your officials. Would you be prepared to move now into a brief private session, which we can adjourn if necessary? Paul Goggins: Yes. Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. |