Examination of Witnesses (Questions 127
- 139)
TUESDAY 25 OCTOBER 2005
RT HON
DAVID MILIBAND
MP, MR PHIL
WOOLAS MP, YVETTE
COOPER MP AND
JIM FITZPATRICK
MP
Q127 Chairman: Can I welcome the
new ministerial team to what is a new ODPM Select Committee. It
seems an extremely good opportunity at the start of this Parliament
to explore the ODPM priorities and the intentions of the Department.
Can I just get over a practical matter right at the beginning,
which is that it would be helpful to the sound recordists if the
Ministers could say one after the other who they are so that the
sound recordists will then be able to recognise your voices and
allocate your remarks to the right person.
Jim Fitzpatrick: Jim Fitzpatrick,
Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Office of the Deputy Prime
Minister.
Yvette Cooper: Yvette Cooper,
Minister for Housing and Planning.
Mr Miliband: David Miliband, Minister
of Communities and Local Government.
Mr Woolas: Phil Woolas, Minister
for Local Government.
Q128 Chairman: Thank you very much.
Can I start off with the first question to you, David, which is
to explore the way in which the Department is going to be operating
given that it is one of the few departments that now has two Cabinet
Ministers within it. Could you give us an idea of how you have
divided the portfolio up, how both of you operate in the Cabinet
in regards to the Department, and to what extent your role is
influenced by the fact that at present the Secretary of State
is focusing on his role as Deputy Prime Minister because the UK
has the EU Presidency?
Mr Miliband: Maybe before I do
that you could just permit me a couple of introductory remarks
to say that we are very pleased to be able to come before you
at a relatively early stage in your work. The issues that are
covered by the ODPM do affect every single citizen in the land
whatever their age and wherever they live. Whilst there are some
issues of party political division in the Office's portfolio,
others are prime candidates for work by Select Committees hopefully
along with government departments and that is the spirit in which
we want to work with you both at ministerial level and at official
level. I think I am right in saying that you have chosen to focus
your first study on housing and housing supply, which is an area
where the more minds that are put to it the better and so we are
looking forward to working with you on that. It is certainly a
very wide-ranging area and we are keen to make sure that you get
all the collaboration and cooperation necessary. In respect of
the question that you asked, my job is to support the Deputy Prime
Minister right across the range of the Office's responsibilities.
We work together to lead the Department. As you say, part of the
thinking behind the appointment was that the DPM has some significant
responsibilities as Deputy Prime Minister, most notably at the
time of the European Presidency but not confined to that because
obviously there are Cabinet Committee responsibilities, chairing
Cabinet Committees and other responsibilities that go with being
Deputy Prime Minister. I think that informed the decision to have
a second Cabinet Minister.
Q129 Chairman: So there are not special
areas of responsibility where your responsibilities differ?
Mr Miliband: No. We thought it
was important from the outset not to split the Department in half
or in any other proportions. I support the DPM in the Department
right across its responsibilities.
Q130 Chairman: In what sense are
you both needed in the Cabinet?
Mr Miliband: I think the fact
that the DPM has so many responsibilities as part of his job as
Deputy Prime Minister. In six months of our European Presidency
those responsibilities take him abroad a lot, but at other times
he has responsibilities that go with being DPM. The Prime Minister
and the Deputy Prime Minister agreed it would be useful to have
a second Cabinet Minister in this Department. Obviously it is
not unique. The Chief Secretary of the Treasury sits in the Cabinet
and the Minister for Europe attends the Cabinet. I do not know
if that means he gets a Cabinet salary as well, but he attends.
We do not have a vote so it has not come to that. It is not without
precedent.
Q131 Chairman: Turning to the review
on the ODPM policies, what conclusions have you reached thus far?
How is the "core narrative" that has been published
going to affect your programming?
Mr Miliband: It was not a review
that I conducted, it was a review that the whole ministerial team
conducted with the board and civil servants in the Department.
I think you will find that most departments take the opportunity
after an election to take stock, to look forward four or five
years and think how they can deliver most obviously on the manifesto
commitments on which the Government was elected. We are in the
fortunate position in the Government that a series of departments
have published five-year plans, we even had two in January and
in March, and so we have quite a significant policy base on which
to look forward to the four or five years of work that are ahead
of us. Our intention with the stock-take of departmental activity
was to try and ensure that we did have the focus and the drive
in the right areas and that we were able to deliver on the manifesto
on which we were elected. My aim and the DPM's aim is that every
single person who works in the ODPM or with the ODPM knows two
things: firstly, that there is real clarity behind the idea of
sustainable community, which is the defining idea of the Department;
and, secondly, that when they come to work in the morning they
are involved in a project that has clear links to that overall
goal. That is why in the documents we sent over we set out the
11 critical areas that were focusing on five key ideas that exemplify
the strategic goals and then four other really critical projects
and then two crosscutting responsibilities that we have got. Our
intention is that that gives a focus to departmental activity
that is important in any organisation.
Q132 Sir Paul Beresford: Does stocktaking
include a review of the budget?
Mr Miliband: The budgetary cycle
is not always perfectly aligned to the electoral cycle. Obviously
it is important as part of the review of our activities and as
the preview of our activities that if we are looking forward,
notably beyond the Spending Review cycle, we think about financial
issues as well as policy issues. Our shared goal is to make sure
that the goals of the Department, the programmes of the Department,
the institutions it works with and the funding are all properly
aligned to ensure that we deliver properly.
Q133 Sir Paul Beresford: So you are
going to meet your portion of the efficiency savings that the
Government is looking for, are you?
Mr Miliband: It would certainly
be very unwise for me to say otherwise. There is a very strong
ministerial interest in doing so because the more we can deliver
on efficiency savings the more we can make sure that our priorities
are delivered on the ground.
Q134 Sir Paul Beresford: What are
the efficiency savings?
Mr Miliband: There are efficiency
savings that belong to the Department (and our Departmental Expenditure
Limits are called DEL) and there are efficiency savings in respect
of local government. In respect of our own activities, you talked
to a senior official last Monday about it. The Committee had a
discussion with him about the difference between £620 million
and £681 million that are the savings that are being sought,
but obviously in respect of local government there is a challenge
in the Gershon efficiency agenda. I am pleased to say that local
government, on the figures that have been published, outperformed
the Gershon targets that were set for efficiency savings and that
illustrates a more general point, which is that efficiency goals
are not a ceiling, they are a floor.
Q135 Chairman: You will know from
the discussions we had with the officials last week that we were
concerned that the Department's efficiency savings were largely
aspirational, they were intended for this coming year and beyond
and there was very little that so far had been delivered. We accepted
that there had been relatively low efficiency savings planned,
but that does mean it is all very aspirational and not a great
deal has actually been achieved.
Mr Miliband: In respect of local
government that is maybe a little unfair.
Q136 Chairman: We were talking about
the Department itself.
Mr Miliband: Within the DEL?
Q137 Chairman: Yes.
Mr Miliband: Peter Unwin tried
to set out the reasons for that scheduling and obviously we have
got to make sure that we deliver on them.
Q138 Sir Paul Beresford: The local
government savings are actual cuts in budget, are they not?
Mr Miliband: The budget is rising.
The budget at the end is less than the budget would be if you
did not get the savings.
Q139 Sir Paul Beresford: Does that
apply to your Department's savings as well?
Mr Miliband: They are certainly
factored into our three-year budgeting exercise that we do with
the Treasury and we are absolutely determined to deliver on them.
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