Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160
- 179)
TUESDAY 25 OCTOBER 2005
RT HON
DAVID MILIBAND
MP, MR PHIL
WOOLAS MP, YVETTE
COOPER MP AND
JIM FITZPATRICK
MP
Q160 Sir Paul Beresford: Keep going.
For a change that is music to my ears.
Mr Miliband: The Balance of Funding
Review looked into this. It concluded that a property base was
the right base for local taxation and that remains the Government's
position.
Chairman: Let us move on to sustainability
and cross-departmental work.
Q161 Martin Horwood: Can I just commend
you on your frequent use of the word sustainability throughout
the annual report. It is the most used word in the entire document.
We have had a copy of your `core narrative' which uses it almost
as much, although, strangely, not amongst the three core values
which I find odd. Obviously there are different aspects to sustainability
including economic sustainability and so on. One of the five key
drivers you identify for a sustainable community is a good physical
environment and you define this as clean, safe and environmentally
sustainable. How do you define environmentally sustainable in
this context?
Yvette Cooper: Environmentally
sustainable would obviously cover a range of things and would
not simply apply to areas of new housing growth where there are
obviously specific issues that are raised, but also to existing
communities, to housing market renewal programmes and to a wide
range of programmes that we do. By environmentally sustainable
we would mean including the contribution that we make towards
the overall climate change programme that Defra is obviously leading,
things like the improvement to the energy efficiency standards
of buildings, issues around the green belt and wider environmental
issues like the increase in the development of brownfields. I
think we would use it to cover a range of different aspects of
environmental sustainability.
Q162 Martin Horwood: That does not
sound quite like a definition to me. Would you accept anything
along the lines that something is sustainable if you can keep
on doing it indefinitely without negative environmental impacts?
Yvette Cooper: I think you always
have to have a balance. There are all kinds of things that you
are trading off in different circumstances. There will be some
things that will have consequences or costs to particular aspects
of the environment that will be balanced by benefits elsewhere.
I do not think I would accept your particular definition. I also
think that you have to have a broader approach to this. I do not
think you necessarily need a precise definition to be able to
communicate what it is you are talking about.
Q163 Martin Horwood: I do. We can
agree to differ on that. For instance, if you take the concentration
that is certainly emerging in the Regional Spatial Strategy in
the South West of concentrating development on principal urban
areas where there is already high demand for housing and I gather
that is an issue in the South East as well, do you think that
constant concentration of new development in areas of high demand
is sustainable in whatever definition you use?
Yvette Cooper: Yes, I think it
is sustainable. I think it is unsustainable not to meet housing
needs for the next generation. We have a growing ageing population
and growing demand for housing which is a result of people living
in single-person households compared to 10 or 20 years ago. I
think we have had a very big increase in demand for housing, so
much so that we have seen a 30% increase in the number of households
over the last 30 years but a 50% drop in the level of new build.
That is not sustainable. The only sensible approach to sustainability
is to work out how you are going to address that housing need
and that housing demand in the future. As part of that you have
to make sure that it is environmentally sustainable, you have
to make sure that you take account of things like water needs,
things like the countryside in the area and improving energy efficiency.
You also have to look at the sustainability of the community and
make sure that you are not simply creating dormitories where everybody
travels some distance to jobs elsewhere with all the impacts that
this will have on increased traffic, transport use and the environmental
consequences that this engenders as well. I think there are a
wide range of environmental considerations that you have to take
into account in order to make sure that it is both environmentally
sustainable and also sustainable in terms of communities and housing
need as well.
Q164 Martin Horwood: I think this
is why it is useful to have a definition. If you went back to
my definition of the ability to do something indefinitely without
harmful impacts then I would have thought the idea of keeping
on building in the countryside around principally urban areas
is not sustainable. Even if you look at things like short car
journeys, which are important, one of the effects again of trying
to avoid what you call dormitory towns is that you take away the
development from small market towns and villages which are dying
through a lack of shops and schools and are suffering from a lack
of new families. Obviously the issues of homelessness and housing
supply are vital issues and this Committee is certainly going
to be addressing those. I want to press you just on the question
of the environmental sustainability of what you are potentially
doing to the countryside which you have referred to quite a lot.
Yvette Cooper: Let us be clear
what we are talking about in terms of the countryside because
there are an awful lot of myths about this. We have increased
the proportion of new homes being built on brownfields from 57%
in 1997 to over 70% today, which is a huge increase. If you look
at the different scenarios for housing growth that were put forward
by Kate Barker and the highest level of housing growth that she
had proposed, which is more than doubling the level of new houses
being built; even at that level you are still affecting less than
1% of the undeveloped countryside and the undeveloped area across
the South East. It seems to me that there are a lot of myths that
are put out about the impact on the countryside. I think you can
keep the priority for brownfield development and at the same time
support new houses that we just desperately need.
Q165 Martin Horwood: You talked about
1% of the countryside. I would refer you to your own Countryside
Agency's work on which percentages of the countryside are most
used. I suspect that that 1% is in the most used part of the countryside,
which is on the urban fringe. I think they calculated something
like 80% of visits to the countryside were conducted around the
fringes of urban areas. I would refer you to that Agency's work.
Mr Miliband: A recent report showed
that we are one of the most urbanised countries in Europe. We
have 8% of land urbanised compared to a European average of 15%.
I think it is important to keep in perspective the challenges
that are being put around. The maximum Barker figure involved
less than 1% as the amount of development in the countryside.
I think that does put it in perspective.
Q166 Anne Main: Currently in some
areas—and I know this is definitely the case in St Albans
and I sure other Members will tell you the same—there are
environmental deficits because we have air quality and noise quality
management areas. These are not being addressed currently. Do
you not feel that you need to address the deficits the environment
currently has before adding to them, which is what your proposals
will do?
Yvette Cooper: If the question
is whether it is right to improve the local environment then in
every part of the country that must be absolutely right.
Q167 Anne Main: It is not happening
now.
Yvette Cooper: It is why local
councillors are doing an awful lot to improve the local environment,
whether it is by running clean-up campaigns, addressing problems
of fly-tipping or graffiti right through to improvements in air
quality. Local authorities are doing a lot on that. It is right
that they should do more on it. We also have to recognise that
many of the pressures that we face are those which are caused
by a growing population and growing changes in attitudes and aspirations
and lifestyles, for example growing car use, which is something
that is facing every single area regardless of whether or not
it is an area which is seeing new homes being built. I think you
need to carry on addressing those. The consequence of saying you
need to do more in that area is to say that we are not going to
build any new homes and we are not going to provide the housing
that the next generation needs and that is just keeping your head
in the sand, it is just bonkers.
Q168 Anne Main: Most authorities
will tell you, if they have an air quality management area, that
all they have to do is identify it, they do not have to deal with
it and they have very few tools to deal with it. There is the
constant pressing feeling from many authorities that the Government
is not helping them by adding to their car use. Has there been
any improved mapping of regional assets, including the mapping
of water? Do you propose any? To make sure things are truly sustainable
is there going to be improved mapping of our regional assets including
our water as well?
Yvette Cooper: As you will be
aware, part of the Regional Spatial Strategies is to look at the
need for water across a region and in addition to that the assessments
that take place through the water industry and through OFWAT are
all about what is the need for water. They have a statutory obligation
to look at what is the need going to be in the future and to deliver
that. A lot of that analysis takes place and is an obligation
of the statutory processes that we already have.
Q169 Anne Main: And you are confident
there is enough water in the right places to supply these houses?
Mr Miliband: We are not allowed
to build if they do not because the Environment Agency has got
an absolute key role in the plans. Anyone will tell you that the
Environment Agency is a rigorous enforcer of its role.
Q170 Anne Main: That is not how it
often comes out. It often comes out as a technical problem getting
water from one place to another. In terms of minimising the use
of water, will you be looking at the planning system to make sure
that Houses are built to a standard, and which standards would
you be looking at?
Yvette Cooper: We have standards
in place as part of the building regulations. We are also setting
out as part of the Code for Sustainable Buildings, which we will
publish before the end of the year, a process of being able to
set out improved standards for the future. We have already said
that we want all of the publicly-funding housing to meet the Code
for Sustainable Buildings because we do think you need to look
at issues around water demand and water management for the future.
In fact, you need to do that regardless of the number of homes
that you have because a growing population uses more water in
terms of the number of showers or times people flush the loo or
whatever. These are things that are caused by growing populations,
not simply by the growth of new housing.
Q171 Anne Main: Will you be looking
through the tax system, since we are cutting across various departments,
to make it advantageous to install things like solar panels, for
example?
Yvette Cooper: As you would expect,
we do not come to Select Committees to comment on the Chancellor's
Budget process. There is already a series of tax measures that
are in place which are about promoting environmental measures,
and I think that is something you should probably contact the
Chancellor about.
Sir Paul Beresford: All of us would recognise
that there is a general need and a positive backing for developments
in the Thames Gateway, but water is one of the big problems. Thames
Water have talked about it and the Environment Agency is deeply
concerned. If the point being made by Mr Miliband is that there
will be no development until the water question is sorted, will
that mean a delay?
Yvette Cooper: The Environment
Agency is already heavily involved and so are the water companies
in the plans for new growth areas, and they have been for some
time. We believe that the developments are continuing, they are
taking place and we are seeing considerable housing growth starting
to take shape in the Thames Gateway. I do not anticipate this
being a huge problem, because everybody is working together to
address any problems that arise.
Q172 Sir Paul Beresford: That is
not quite the way it is coming over in the press. I know they
are not always right.
Yvette Cooper: You may believe
everything you read in the press if you want to.
Q173 Sir Paul Beresford: I did qualify
that, but this is persistent.
Yvette Cooper: It is always the
case that things get reported in the press—all sorts of
things appear in the press. We actually had more issues raised
around Ashford than around water in the other growth areas, and
the ODPM is actually funding the Environment Agency to look into
the water needs of the area and to develop what is called an integrated
water management strategy for Ashford. These things are taken
very seriously throughout the growth areas; I do not think they
are insurmountable problems for the growth of new housing.
Q174 Chairman: Can I try and pick
up another issue in relation to the growth areas, which is that
in order to deliver on the various growth areas, many other Government
departments outside ODPM also need to be delivering, both on the
funding of capital schemes and on making provision in the forward
revenue plan for the fact that populations in those areas in the
future are going to be very significantly larger than they are
at present. Are you happy with the current level of cross-government
working in relation to the Sustainable Communities growth agenda,
and are you confident that you will be able to get other departments
to deliver their part of the growth agenda?
Yvette Cooper: Obviously you will
know that some changes have already taken place as part of this;
for example, in education funding we now have a trigger mechanism
which means that in areas where there is high growth in housing
or where there is a sudden increase in the need for schools as
a result of a growth in pupil numbers, there are particular capital
budgets that they can draw down, and that has already taken place
in some of the growth areas.
Q175 Chairman: But in education,
for example, the Learning and Skills Council has flatly said that
it has no provision within its funding mechanism for taking account
of growth.
Yvette Cooper: Let me just finish
my answer on the things that I think have changed already. In
health funding as well there have been changes in the funding
of PCTs, so health funding has started to take account of future
population growth rather than simply the previous figures as well,
so those changes have already taken place too. We have also seen,
I think, commitment from other agencies and other organisations
across government to support the infrastructure funding that we
need, whether it is transport infrastructure funding or through
Learning and Skills—the Medway University, for example.
That sort of future funding which is needed is not simply about
the population growth and the new housing, it is actually about
supporting the economic regeneration that we need to make communities
viable and sustainable. We think, therefore, that there has been
a strong commitment across the Government to supporting this;
some changes have already taken place and we are working with
colleagues right across government to try to support this into
the future.
Mr David Miliband: This is a good
area to push on, because if you look at how we define a sustainable
community, the drivers that we have identified really call on
a large number of government departments to come together. The
revealed preference of Government is not to be the most perfectly
joined-up organisation in world history; however, I have been
struck in the last six months that if you look at the test cases,
which are the growth areas along the Thames Gateway, I sense a
real urgency on the part of other departments to take this seriously.
The figure is £13 billion of infrastructure investment in
the Thames Gateway alone, there are major decisions coming up,
notably in transport, and we are engaging with the Department
of Transport. There is also—and you hinted at this, Chairman—a
responsibility for us because local authority funding formulae
can anticipate changes, and maybe Phil could just say something
about the consultation that is under way at the moment, precisely
on this issue.
Mr Woolas: To reinforce that point,
as you would know, Chairman, the consultation over the formula,
which closed on October 10, does examine the issue of population
growth trends as opposed to historic growth in the funding formula.
As you will know, many funding formulas are on a per capita basis,
which in some budgets is an annual head count, but in trend growth
that is one issue that is very important. We are working with
the Office of National Statistics very closely to look at exactly
the point that you are making.
Q176 Anne Main: Will the infrastructure
come before the expansion, or will it come after?
Mr Miliband: Are you referring
to local government funding in particular?
Q177 Anne Main: I mean the development
of it.
Mr Miliband: Let me give you an
example. I went to Barking in the Thames Gateway not long ago.
The infrastructure there in the form of a primary school is coming
first, it is being built. In other areas it will come along at
the same time, but they have got to go together. The whole point
of a sustainable community is that they have got to go together.
Q178 Anne Main: Can you explain to
me then why some regional areas have refused to sign off plans
because they do not believe the infrastructure deficit will be
met or that funding will be available at the right time?
Yvette Cooper: I know that the
Eastern Regional Assembly have changed their position a number
of times on all of this and that is a matter for them, not for
us. Going through the proper process with the independent panel
and looking at all of these things, we have made clear our commitment
to providing infrastructure and we have started providing infrastructure
in a lot of areas already. I do not believe it is our job to comment
on their views.
Q179 Anne Main: You firmly believe
the funding will be adequate then for whatever . . .
Mr Woolas: Are you referring to
individual local authorities or to infrastructure within a region?
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