Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160-179)
MR PAUL
YOUNG, COUNCILLOR
DAVID BROWNE
AND MRS
SUE SMITH
31 JANUARY 2006
Q160 John Cummings: They
certainly have not done that in Durham or Northumberland.
Mr Young: No, but in terms of
geographical size there are some very different circumstances
in the South West. You are talking of literally hundreds of miles
from one end of the region to the other; hundreds of miles, a
very, very large geographical area with very, very sparsely populated
rural communities, with certain urban areas as well, such as Bristol
and Plymouth. There are some practical problems in day-to-day
management, in trying to maintain a relationship with staff, in
trying to give a sense of identity with the organisation to local
communities who want to have a sense of identity with their local
Fire Service. Some of those things are practical problems which
are very difficult to overcome in a region the size of the South
West. There are political opinions as well that Councillor David
Browne might wish to touch on, which are an issue for the Fire
Authority as well.
Councillor Browne: To give you
an illustration, if you stand at the north-east corner of the
South West Region, you are nearer to Scotland than you are to
the other end of the region; it is that sort of size and the political
dimensions vary across the region. The Cornish, for example, feel
that they are a region on their own and they agitate for that.
We have taken a slightly more pragmatic view in Devon, but it
varies by political party. That is why we have been looking, with
Somerset, at a mutual solution of combining with Somerset.
Q161 Chair: Is it that
Somerset is more amenable to cooperation than Cornwall?
Councillor Browne: Yes, there
is that. Somerset and Devon are very similar in terms of their
sparse population and their structures, so we see a good fit there.
Q162 Alison Seabeck: In
your note you also expressed some concerns about the inadequacies
of constitutional arrangements for the Regional Management Boards.
Would you like to elaborate on that and where you think those
inadequacies are?
Mrs Smith: The Regional Management
Board is a local government joint committee and that is all it
is. It is not a corporate body in its own right, it is not an
employer in its own right, it does not have any separate legal
status; it is just a joint committee. I think there is a misconception
in central government within the Civil Service that it actually
has more powers than it really has in terms of directing anything.
The direction has to come from the individual Fire Authorities
through the Regional Management Board, maybe as a joint committee.
That is what we mean by constitutional arrangements.
Q163 Alison Seabeck: Finally,
there are proposals in place to regionalise police and Ambulance
Services. I know that the police are looking at a Devon and Cornwall
option, particularly around where I am. How will that intermesh
with what you are doing with Somerset and will there be problems?
Mr Young: There is already an
absence of alignment between boundaries on blue light services.
If you pick the police, of course, we have Devon and Cornwall,
we have Avon and Somerset and so on. If you pick the Ambulance
Service, we have West Country Ambulance which covers Cornwall,
Devon and Somerset. If you pick fire, each county has its own
Fire Service still. So there is already an absence in terms of
those boundaries. As far as the work that we are doing with Somerset
is concerned, clearly it will perpetuate that, there is no doubt,
but it will not make any significant difference in terms of the
relationship between us and our colleagues in the other services.
Q164 Dr Pugh: Why is co-responding
such a divisive topic for the FRS?
Mr Young: Well it is not divisive
within Devon Fire and Rescue Service because we very much support
the project. We are very committed to it. It is one of the most
exciting things which has happened in the Fire Service for a long
time and it is about meeting the needs of local communities. It
is divisive in the sense that the largest representative body
in the Fire Service has a stance of opposition to it; so in that
sense, it is divisive. Certainly we, as an organisation, and I
know the authority as well, are very committed to it.
Q165 Dr Pugh: Is the difficulty
anything to do with the apportionment of costs? Who will pick
up the tab if the FRS attends a medical emergency? Does that money
come to you from the Ambulance Service because you are in a sense
doing their work?
Mr Young: This is something we
should like to see addressed by a dialogue between the ODPM and
the Department of Health because the current arrangement is that
there is no single financial framework to facilitate the operation
of co-responders. Everything depends entirely upon a local arrangement
between an individual Fire Service and its local Ambulance Service.
In some areas you find that there is reimbursement of costs from
ambulance to fire and in other areas there is not. What we believe
is that if ODPM wish to see the further development of co-responders,
and of course it is in the national framework document, the LGA
is supportive, the national employers are supportive and an increasing
number of Fire Authorities are supportive, then ODPM and the Department
of Health need to have some joined-up thinking about how they
can actually facilitate that.
Q166 Dr Pugh: That sounds
like a very sensible suggestion and it will take a lot of friction
out of the process. Can we move to another area of possible friction,
integrated risk management plans and the culture of prevention
which we looked at yesterday, which we were all told were very
much embedded in the service. One restraint appears to be in some
areas that the retained service seems less involved in it than
it might be. What is the position in your neck of the woods and
are you making adequate use of the retained service?
Mr Young: I would not agree that
the retained service is less involved. The integrated risk management
plan is about the service as a whole and in Devon, for example,
retained firefighters and retained fire stations are an essential
and a fully integrated part of the organisation. They feature
within our integrated risk management plan completely.
Q167 Dr Pugh: The Retained
Firefighters' Union told us yesterday that they were not always
consulted in all areas. Are you a model of good practice then?
Mr Young: I would not suggest
that. Certainly the issue of consultation is a separate issue
from the involvement of the retained firefighters. In terms of
using retained firefighters as a resource within the Fire and
Rescue Service, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, that
they are fully utilised. If there is a view that there is lack
of consultation, then clearly that is an issue which will vary
from one authority to another. We believe that we are very much
engaged with the Retained Firefighters' Union, as we are with
all representative bodies and Mrs Smith may well wish to comment
on that.
Mrs Smith: We have a very good
relationship with the Retained Firefighters' Union. We have been
working very, very closely with them recently on a new salary-based
retained duty system.
Q168 Dr Pugh: Do you consult
with them?
Mrs Smith: We have consulted with
them almost weekly in the last six months actually, but at least
monthly and specifically about the new retained duty system. Yes,
I personally consult with them. I have regular meetings with John
Barton and occasionally Derek Chadbon, who I know was here yesterday;
they know me very well and I know them very well. It would be
unfair to say that in Devon they are not consulted. They actually
do have local negotiating rights with Devon as well, which is
a new departure, so they have very strong representation.
Q169 Dr Pugh: So you are
a model of good practice then.
Mr Young: Quite possibly.
Q170 Lyn Brown: The Audit
Commission reports that you are being successful in increasing
the numbers of women in the workforce. What are you doing that
is so right? My second question is: given that you are on course
to meet the targets, why do you think that the ODPM targets are
unachievable?
Mrs Smith: In answer to your first
question, the reason why we are actually doing better than some—and
I should actually say that we are still not doing as well as we
should like—is that we have had a great increase in recruitment
of women to the retained workforce and that is about trying to
make the job seem more family friendly. Part of the new retained
salary scheme which I just mentioned is about changing the culture,
so you actually know that you have a job to do as a retained firefighter,
you know what you are going to be paid and you can do it for a
reduced-hours contract as well. All those issues in terms and
conditions of service for the retained workforce have actually
emphasised to members of the public who might want to join the
retained workforce what the benefits are. We have actually proactively
campaigned within small towns and focused on particular small
towns where we have had a recruitment problem which has generated
additional women into the retained staff. The bigger issue for
us really is recruitment to the whole-time service and part of
that is limited by the numbers that we need to recruit at any
one time and the numbers that apply at any one time. For every
time we advertise for a whole-time firefighter, we get thousands
of applicants literally on the whole-time service and obviously
they all go through a set process. We have to start that off with
some positive action to encourage women to apply, but even if
they apply, there is quite a regime to go through in terms of
actually getting to the end result. We are still getting more
women firefighters, but not enough.
Q171 Lyn Brown: May I
ask what your retention is like, when you get your women firefighters
there?
Mrs Smith: It is not bad. I would
not say it was any worse for women, particularly in the retained
service, than it is for the men.
Q172 Lyn Brown: What are
the barriers to staying once they are there?
Mrs Smith: It is about the critical
mass really, is it not? If you are only 58 out of 1,400, then
there is an issue in terms of being accepted as the norm. As I
said, we are trying to overcome all the barriers which people
identify like physical amenities and all those sorts of things;
the Fire Authority is putting resources into those.
Mr Young: May I just add a pragmatic
point to that? You asked why we still think that the target is
unachievable and the reason we think the target is unachievable
is because when the target was originally published we took the
view, even then, that it was unachievable because, although our
staff turnover rates in retained firefighters are high, and that
is not peculiar to Devon, the staff turnover rates in whole-time
are very low. We knew that if we were to meet that target, there
would be one particular year when 50% of all of our recruitment
would have to consist of women and, from experience, we knew it
was unrealistic frankly. Therefore we still do not think it is
achievable. We are doing adequately, not as well as we should
like, but we still do not think it is achievable.
Q173 Lyn Brown: Your black
and minority ethnic staff also do not reflect your local population.
Why do you think that is and do you think you are doing as much
as you possibly can to promote diversity?
Mrs Smith: They do not quite reflect
the population. They are not too far adrift but they do not quite
reflect and the numbers in Devon's population have increased over
the last year or so. There was a time when we were closer than
we are now actually, but we are talking about 1% in the population
against 0.7 previously, so it is fairly small in terms of numbers.
Q174 Lyn Brown: Point
seven?
Mrs Smith: It was point seven
but it is now one point something.
Q175 Alison Seabeck: I
was interested in your comments about women coming into the retained
force. Is there an element of them finding that slightly more
attractive because the shift patterns or the arrangements are
generally more flexible?
Mrs Smith: One of the points of
the new duty system that we are hoping to implement—and
I am still waiting to hear from the Retained Firefighters' Union
whether they support it or not—is that we are offering different
contracts, more flexible contracts, shorter-hours contracts, those
sorts of facilities to help recruitment.
Q176 Mr Hands: A question
on comprehensive performance assessment or CPA. Do you think the
CPA process, in its interaction with Fire Authorities, has given
a thorough and robust assessment of yourselves and other authorities?
Mr Young: In terms of the remit
that CPA had, which did not embrace all aspects of the Fire Service,
in the context of that, we believe it was robust, yes. We really
felt as though we had been assessed at the end of the process.
Because we got a good rating, we feel that it was an accurate
one as well. The issue that it did not deal with, which has yet
to be addressed and we realise will be addressed, is the issue
of the operational service delivery dimension of the service.
Ironically, from the general public's point of view, to be frank
that is the bit they are more interested in.
Q177 Sir Paul Beresford: How
much did the CPA cost?
Mr Young: That is a good question.
Mrs Smith: To us, it is actually
the loss of time in terms of managing the process rather than
actual cost to the authority.
Q178 Sir Paul Beresford: I
was hoping you would include that.
Mrs Smith: I do not have a figure
for you on that one.
Sir Paul Beresford: What is your gearing?
Q179 Chair: Would it be
possible for you to provide us with a figure afterwards, without
wasting a lot more of your time on it?
Mrs Smith: Yes.
Chair: We do not need it to be accurate
but a ball-park estimate would be helpful.
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