Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220-223)
MS V SHAWCROSS,
MR KEN
KNIGHT AND
MR RON
DOBSON
31 JANUARY 2006
Q220 Lyn Brown: Do you
think you have lessons for other Fire Authorities to learn?
Ms Shawcross: Obviously we do
share practice within the Fire Service and we go on visits and
we look at what other services are doing and we invite people
to look at what we are doing; not just within the ODPM's beacon
project, but outside it. Sometimes that is more interesting, because
it is less structured and you can go where you need to go. We
have tried to target people with some specific outreach programmes
and given women taster events, that kind of programme. I have
to say, to some extent the equal opportunities law is not terribly
helpful because it does put an iron curtain down in front of some
of the practices you would want to carry out. We took legal advice,
counsel's opinion, very early on as to how far we could go in
trying actively to promote recruitment of women and ethnic minorities.
A core issue, from talking to the women in the service, has always
been what experience women get when they work in the service.
They have always had a really appallingly bad experience and it
is only now that we are starting to improve that experience. Women
are not stupid and they talk to each other and they ask women
who work in the service what it is like. I feel confident now
that we are getting to grips with the culture of the organisation
and, with improved management, that the women are starting to
get a better experience and that will flow through into better
recruitment. We have nearly doubled the number of women we had
five years ago, but it was from an extremely low base.
Q221 Lyn Brown: You state
that you wanted the Government to review their national targets
and to ensure they are based on empirical evidence. What leads
you to think that the targets are not based on empirical evidence
and how precisely would you change those targets?
Ms Shawcross: We noticed very
early on and I would echo the comments of our colleagues in Devon,
that the targets did not seem to be based on any understanding
of how there was a flow-through of staff within the service and
what mechanisms for change were available to us. They are simply
unrealistic because they do not reflect the number of posts that
we are advertising and recruiting. Equally, they do not reflect
the fact that, as my colleague from Devon said, when you advertise
a job you do get a majority of traditional workforce white men
applying; it is an extremely popular career amongst that group
and you cannot dismiss those applications. They have to be looked
at and dealt with. The point we would make is that not all the
tools we needed went with the targets.
Q222 Lyn Brown: How would
you change the targets?
Ms Shawcross: We should want to—
Mr Knight: It is that lack of
empirical evidence. We are absolutely committed to the diverse
workforce just to deliver the core business we want to. We are
having discussions with the ODPM and certainly more realistic
targets for us would be around the number of joiners, not the
number in the establishment. So, for example, we would be more
satisfied to talk about 25% BME joiners and 12% women joiners
by 2009, not the proportion of the workforce which is so static.
Q223 Lyn Brown: Given
the evidence of your Chair, maybe another one would be how many
you were able to retain.
Ms Shawcross: The retention has
improved; that has been something we have been looking at all
the way through and retention has improved. We also looked at
the disproportionate number of ethnic minorities who were suffering
disciplinary action. We have tried to be very open about all of
that programme. I agree with the Commissioner, that we should
much prefer to have our targets cast around what we are actually
doing. If we have a year when there is no recruitment, then—
Mr Knight: There needs to be some
sophistication there as well. How many are attracted to join?
How many join? How many stay? It is a very blunt instrument just
to talk about such targets as the number in the establishment.
It is joiners and the sub-set below that counts drilling down
into what makes people want to join and stay.
Chair: Thank you very much for your evidence.
I am sure the Committee would like to take the opportunity of
expressing our thanks to you and the other emergency services
for dealing with 7/7 and 21/7. All of us were here in London and
fortunately, as far as I know, no Member of this House suffered
harm. Clearly we are very appreciative of the way in which the
emergency services responded to those two events.
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