Examination of Witnesses (Questions 224-239)
BOB WILKINSON,
MR PETER
HOLLAND AND
MR CHRIS
KENNY
31 JANUARY 2006
Chair: Thank you very
much for joining us. My colleague, John Pugh, will start off the
questions.
Q224 Dr Pugh: In your
memorandum you state that there is a case for Regional Control
Centres but you state categorically that there are going to be
special problems in the North West. May I ask you a two-part question?
Are you convinced of the need for Regional Control Centres and
their benefits, or are you just convinced that they might have
benefits for other parts of the world apart from the North West?
Mr Holland: Perhaps we should
just introduce ourselves first. I am Peter Holland, Chief Fire
Officer.
County Councillor Wilkinson: Bob
Wilkinson, the Chair of Lancashire Combined Fire Authority.
Mr Kenny: Chris Kenny, the Assistant
Chief Fire Officer.
Mr Holland: May I start first
in terms of the controls? Yes, we are convinced from the Government's
perspective and it was built into the national framework, we have
supported the project 100% from its start-off point. Our concerns
really emanate from the costs associated with the project and
the estimated savings that will be made. In the ODPM's own circulars,
they pointed out that the larger busier services will not save
as much as the smaller quieter services. Certainly we in the North
West are the next biggest in operational terms to London, hence
the concerns of the North West and ourselves in Lancashire. We
need to see the sums worked out locally just so we know how it
is going to impact from our point of view.
Q225 Dr Pugh: It is not
so much a regional point but a financial point you are making
here; it is to do with the size of the authority.
Mr Holland: It is certainly a
financial point from the authority's perspective.
County Councillor Wilkinson: From
the authority's perspective we do not see any financial benefits
to a regional control, because of the amount it is costing now
and the amount it will cost in future. What we do not want to
see is the public paying more for a worse service.
Q226 Dr Pugh: Do you see
any service benefits?
Mr Kenny: There are lots of benefits
with the proposals for regional controls. When you look at the
technology that is going to be included in the regional controls,
the automatic vehicle location, the caller identification, the
more robust inter-operability, we do see benefits. One of the
problems we face is that the business case that has been done
has been a national business case and we cannot translate those
national figures into how it will affect the region or in fact
Lancashire Fire and Rescue Service.
Q227 Dr Pugh: It is not
so much the project you are bothered about, it is how the finances
will stack up and impact on the general level of service you can
offer.
Mr Kenny: Correct.
Q228 Dr Pugh: Forgive
me for saying so, but that sounds like positioning which local
authorities will go in for at a certain point in order to enhance
their position. Have you had a discussion with the Government
over this and if so, what has been the result of it?
Mr Kenny: We have got the FiReControl
project regionally, in which we engage with the national project.
We are keen to produce clarity because when we are trying to sell
the benefits, people will ask at what cost it comes. We are trying
to engage nationally to ask what exactly the FiReControl project
will deliver. Is that written in stone, will that be reduced in
the future and what will that cost be for both the region and
Lancashire Fire and Rescue Services?
Q229 Dr Pugh: Yesterday
we seemed to get a degree of clarity because the Government officials
were very keen to say that whatever additional cost there was,
you would not pick up the tab, the tab would be picked up by the
Government. On that basis, is that the kind of clarity you are
looking for and would that satisfy you?
Mr Kenny: The concept of New Burdens
is something that is quite easy to trot out, that these will be
the benefits and this will be picked up if it is a New Burden.
Defining New Burdens is more complicated. A full business case
was never presented: it would be very helpful to be able to say
we are now totally clear on which costs are ours, which costs
are theirs. New Burdens seem to be allocated more on a piece-meal
case-by-case basis, rather than strategically, exactly defining
who picks up what and when.
Q230 Dr Pugh: So you are
suspicious of the Government. You think that they may introduce
new costs but then tell you that they are not actually New Burdens
at all, they are burdens you have traditionally shouldered in
another form.
Mr Kenny: It would certainly benefit
both ourselves and the public we represent to have that clarity
from the start.
County Councillor Wilkinson: I
attended a meeting this morning and asked how these New Burdens
would be paid.
Q231 Chair: Sorry; a meeting
with . . . ? Was it with ODPM? We do not need to know exactly
who.
County Councillor Wilkinson: With
the ODPM; people from the ODPM. I asked how these New Burdens
would be paid and the stock answer, which I expected, was that
it will be built into our grant. That did not give me a lot of
confidence.
Q232 Dr Pugh: You have
heard that before.
County Councillor Wilkinson: I
have heard it a few times before.
Q233 John Cummings: Many
FRAs have expressed reservations about the benefits and efficiency
savings that will derive from the shift to Regional Control Centres.
Are you aware of any impact this is having on public confidence
in the fire and rescue services and, in turn, the fire and rescue
services' ability to perform well?
Mr Holland: Certainly issues have
been raised in newspapers. Some lobbying has been going on by
the staff; quite understandably. The staff are concerned about
their futures; these are very professional dedicated staff who
do a first class job. They are involved in saving people's lives,
handling calls and keeping callers on the end of 999 calls. They
are concerned about their future so they raise issues, quite understandably,
with the local media. In terms of consultation, it is not an issue
for us to go out locally and consult with the public on. We are
involved in a national project here, but we are engaged very closely
with our staff to try to reassure them and help them work through
the future. This is why, in our response, we have talked about
how we deal with the human resources aspects and have put in a
plea—and I am delighted that we are here to be able to make
that plea so that you can assist us—for some speed in deciding
just what pay the staff are going to receive, what conditions
of service they are going to receive, how they are going to be
selected, how redundancies, if any, are going to be dealt with.
The staff do not know that and clearly that it going to help them
plan their futures when that is determined. Also, importantly,
going back to the first issue about costs, it helps us sort out
the financial situation. Clearly redundancy costs are a major
issue.
Q234 John Cummings: So
you believe it is affecting performance?
Mr Holland: I do not believe it
is affecting performance. These are very professional people.
The staff are continuing to work remarkably well, given the fact
that morale has undoubtedly gone down.
Q235 John Cummings: You
are certainly very critical of the FiReControl project for the
tardy manner in which certain human resource issues such as selection,
terms and conditions, pay, relocation and redundancies have been
addressed. Can you explain the impact in your area of the failure
to address these issues in a constructive and timely manner?
Mr Kenny: At the minute, because
of ownership of the project, the project sees those terms and
conditions issues sitting with the new employer, so that is dependent
on defining who the entity is. At the minute we are at an impasse,
awaiting clarification of those things. Once those things are
clarified, they will feed back into the costs which will allow
the project—
Q236 John Cummings: Are
you confident that they are going to be clarified?
Mr Kenny: There has been a major
step forward recently in that a more strategic working group has
been set up with regional HR directors and Lancashire is certainly
involved in that. We are hoping that that might provide a trigger
to enable the ODPM and the employers to engage and move this subject
forward.
Q237 Lyn Brown: Do you
think the move to the Regional Control Centres is going to have
a negative impact upon your equality targets?
Mr Holland: In respect of the
staff that we employ?
Q238 Lyn Brown: Indeed.
Do you think you will be laying off lots and lots of women? Do
you think it is going to have a—
Mr Holland: We employ 41 members
of staff in our control room: there are two men and the remainder
are females. It is certainly going to reduce the number of uniformed
females in Lancashire Fire and Rescue Service sadly.
Q239 Chair: May I turn
to FireLink and ask whether you are convinced by the case for
FireLink for your area and for the Fire Service nationally?
Mr Holland: As you probably picked
up from our response, we moved over to the Airwave system three
years ago and it has worked extremely well for us. We are concerned
more about the transitional period, that we might lose the enhanced
functionality that we have enjoyed over these last three years
and indeed we have developed the system. We are going to have
to move slightly; we are still going to have Airwave, but there
is going to be a transition onto a new model of radio and that
potentially could cause us to lose some operational functions
within the system.
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