Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
SIR
JOHN BOURN
KCB, MS AILEEN
MURPHIE ANC
MS PAULA
DIGGLE
19 APRIL
2006
Q40 Mr Khan: May I take you to page
15 please? One of the three paragraphs referring to this important
issue is paragraph 2.15 and it gives some ideas: for example,
inviting local religious leaders to prisons to inspect preparation
and storage; for example, discussing any concerns with prisoners
and caterers; for example, observing major religious festivals.
Then it goes on. Where do you see mention of the method of slaughter?
Mr Wheatley: I am saying that
in terms of what I have had to think about in developing the Halal
food standard, that has been one of the key issues.
Q41 Mr Khan: The Committee of Public
Accounts of this House is investigating prisoner diet and exercise.
Almost 10% of your prisoners are Muslim. Did you not think it
important to raise with the NAO this huge omission from the three
paragraphs that they devoted to this?
Mr Wheatley: I do not regard it
has a huge omission on the NAO's part. I am saying that that is
one of the things we have been consulting about and is a crucial
issue in developing the new standard for Halal food. There are
also important issues around making sure that food is kept separate,
that when it is served it is served in a way that is appropriate
and given separate status and we have just issued, as part of
that process, labelled, completely separate utensils to be used
only for Halal food.
Q42 Mr Khan: When was the last time
you spoke to a governor about Halal food?
Mr Wheatley: The week before last.
Q43 Mr Khan: Which prison was that?
Mr Wheatley: That was at Wymott,
the last prison I was at. It is an issue in most prisons now,
so it is a thing I would mention and that happens to be the last
prison I visited.
Q44 Mr Khan: How do you convey to
those governors who you do not visit the seriousness of this issue?
Mr Wheatley: By speaking at conference
about the importance of getting all issues to do with our black
and minority ethnic prisoners right and particularly about being
sensitive to issues around the Muslim faith.
Q45 Mr Khan: Which prisons do you
hold out as beacons of good practice that we should all aspire
to and aim towards?
Mr Wheatley: I would hesitate
to name any.
Q46 Mr Khan: Just name five.
Mr Wheatley: No, that would be
an inappropriate thing to do.
Q47 Mr Khan: Just name one good prison.
Mr Wheatley: At the moment one
of the places which is most careful in doing their work, because
of the concern, is Belmarsh where a lot of work has been put in
to make sure we get the diet right for prisoners who are Muslim.
That has required a great deal of effort. There is some good work
being done at Bullingdon; that is another example. Actually, the
big thing we need to get right to make sure that I am content
that we have got the food right for Muslims is to make sure that
we have a very clear standard for what is Halal food and an excellent
supply certified to an appropriate standard.
Q48 Mr Khan: May I move on to another
issue? Is obesity a problem in your prisons?
Mr Wheatley: Obesity is a problem
for some prisoners. It is not a problem in prison. The prisoners
who become obese in prison are few and far between. The number
of prisoners who arrive in prison who are obese is significant,
though actually we have probably got a slightly larger problem
with people coming in under-nourished, usually because of substance
abuse.
Q49 Mr Khan: May I take from that
the answer is "not really"? It is not really an issue?
Mr Wheatley: No, it is not a big
issue. There will be exceptions.
Q50 Mr Khan: Does that explain why
you are taking no steps to prevent obesity in prisoners?
Mr Wheatley: No, it does not explain
why we are taking no steps. We are taking steps. We are changing
the diet as a result of some of the research that has been done
for this Report. We have done work to try to make sure that we
reduce the amount of frying we do; we do more oven baking which
is one way of reducing the amount of frying we do while still
producing food that is acceptable to prisoners. We are increasing
the supply of healthy options, particularly fruit versus sweet,
which will make a difference.
Q51 Mr Khan: Are you educating your
prisoners about the importance of certain types of food?
Mr Wheatley: Yes, and we are employing
somebody centrally to help us to work up advice on that and working
with the Department of Health, which nowadays supplies our health
provision in establishments.
Q52 Mr Khan: Exercise?
Mr Wheatley: Exercise is to make
sure we make the best possible use of the PE facilities we have.
Q53 Mr Khan: Right. That leads me
on to the next question.
Mr Wheatley: We have over 40%
take-up in PE which, compared with the world at large, is probably
pretty good actually.
Q54 Mr Khan: That is a very good
answer. What does take-up mean? How do you define take-up?
Mr Wheatley: Take-up means people
are going to the gym and engaging in activity at least once a
week.
Q55 Mr Khan: Male prisoners and female
prisoners?
Mr Wheatley: The overall figure
I have is for all prisoners and it varies prison by prison.
Q56 Mr Khan: Do the figures for male
prisoners not mask how appallingly badly female prisoners are
vis-a"-vis exercise?
Mr Wheatley: I would need to go
back and look at that in more detail. I do not have the detail
to give you an accurate answer to that at this point. I can write
to the Committee separately on that. [1]
Q57 Mr Khan: You are not able to say
whether physical activity female prisoners receive is much worse
than male prisoners?
Mr Wheatley: I do not think it
is much worse but I do not want to invent figures and I do not
have the figures in my head.
Q58 Mr Khan: Two final issues. Is
there an issue for you about over-crowding, low numbers of staff
and lack of facilities impeding your ability to provide the physical
education that your prisoners deserve?
Mr Wheatley: If we over-crowd
too much and we do not have sufficient staff, there would be a
real risk of that and it is one of the reasons—
Q59 Mr Khan: Is it an issue at the
moment?
Mr Wheatley: It is not, providing
we keep the population under the operational capacities we have
certified as being safe. That is why it is crucial we do not over-crowd
more than we think the facilities will allow us to do in a reasonable
way.
1 Note by witness: The take-up of physical education
by female prisoners, in establishments where PE is directly provided
by the public sector Prison Service, during 2005-06, averaged
42%-up from 37% in 2004-05. This compares with a total average
take-up of 43% for the prisoner population as a whole during 2004-05.
The figure for male prisoners in 2005-06 is estimated to average
52%. Back
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