Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
OFFICE OF
THE DEPUTY
PRIME MINISTER,
GROUNDWORK AND
CABE
24 APRIL 2006
Q20 Mr Khan: Mr Matthew would call
it enabling the local authority, local community to get involved.
Mr Housden: These are not pretty
words, are they? What we have been trying to describe here is
an approach which avoids micro managing.
Q21 Mr Khan: The Report uses words
such as central advocacy, help raising awareness. That is fine,
is it not? Are you comfortable with that?
Mr Housden: Yes, that is fine.
Q22 Mr Khan: May I take you to page
21 of the report which talks about some of the reasons. A lot
of them are common sense and frankly we did not need a report
to tell us this: the benefits of green space, social cohesion,
pollution control, health and well-being. We would agree with
most of those reasons. May I now take you to page 29, in particular
paragraph 2.13? What this quite clearly says in paragraph 2.13
is "Residents in deprived communities have not shared equally
in the improvement seen" and it talks about how it reaches
that conclusion. Is it not a scandal that those most in need of
decent green spaces in urban areas are being deprived of that?
Mr Housden: The Report properly
points out, as your first question underlined, the huge benefits
there are to a community of having good quality green spaces.
Q23 Mr Khan: Is it not a scandal
that they are not benefiting?
Mr Housden: The judgment I would
come to on this is that there are real outstanding needs which
need to be tackled. However, if you were looking overall, you
would see important progress here.
Q24 Mr Khan: Progress has been made,
but is it not a scandal that they are seeing the least progress?
Mr Housden: I would not come to
that word, no.
Q25 Mr Khan: Why are your initiatives
failing these people?
Mr Housden: The evidence is that
the initiatives are not failing these people, that there is important
progress across the board. What paragraph 2.13 is pointing to
is that that is more rapid in the more advantaged areas.
Q26 Mr Khan: Go to page 32, table
21, "Residents' satisfaction with parks and open spaces in
2000 and 2003". Do you accept those?
Mr Housden: Of course.
Q27 Mr Khan: They are doing the least
best.
Mr Housden: There is a difference;
I am not disputing that for a second. Nor am I disputing the way
in which our policy going forward needs to address those issues,
both in terms of the quantity of funding, which it does, and enabling
those local authorities to have the skilled support to enable
them to increase those rates of satisfaction.
Q28 Mr Khan: So why are you failing
them then?
Mr Housden: We have discussed
the greater challenge that those local authorities face in maintaining
green spaces. We can predict therefore that the decline would
have been more pronounced in those areas.
Q29 Mr Khan: One of the reasons I
was quite interested in which you gave in response to Mr Mitchell's
question was that one has to question whether, when we look at
open spaces, green spaces, having too much may be a problem and
greater attention should be given to maintaining a small number.
Am I paraphrasing that accurately?
Mr Housden: Yes, that can be a
response.
Q30 Mr Khan: Have you undertaken
an exercise to map the green spaces in the deprived areas?
Mr Housden: We are just undertaking
now, in relation to this data point, an exercise to map green
spaces, yes, with Ordnance Survey. Local authorities are loading
this data onto a national mapping base which will be a very powerful
tool.
Q31 Mr Khan: Bearing in mind that
the implication of what you are saying is that it may be in the
interests of some areas to have fewer open spaces so they can
better maintain those that they have, how many of those green
spaces are protected, for example metropolitan open land that
cannot be built upon or sold off?
Mr Housden: The planning framework
of course applies protection to all green spaces. PPG17, to which
the Report refers, actually places local authorities under an
obligation to conduct an audit and to assess their need and we
shall no doubt talk later about the progress that local authorities
have made in achieving that. Right from the very first day that
it came into force, that guidance actually required local authorities
to pay attention to its requirements. It is a broad and balanced
policy that local authorities—
Q32 Mr Khan: Time is short. I am
confused. What do you mean when you say maybe some local authorities
should do more with fewer sites, rather than doing a little with
more sites?
Mr Housden: My preface to the
point was to say that in some cases local authorities may not
have an accurate record of all the green spaces that they are
responsible for and funding. They may not know, as the Report
indicates, exactly what they spend on maintaining them and one
aspect, and I would stress one aspect, ought to be to acquire
that data and understanding and see what, from their point of
view, is a sustainable way forward.
Q33 Mr Khan: Such as?
Mr Housden: It may well be, for
example, that a community would be better served by having four
excellent parks than five or six which are less well maintained.
Q34 Mr Khan: What happens to the
fifth and sixth one?
Mr Housden: That would be a matter
for the local authority to determine.
Q35 Mr Khan: Come on, look, we are
all reasonably intelligent here—some less so than others.
What do you mean by that?
Mr Housden: The local authority,
thinking about the totality of space it is responsible for, would
have to reach a judgment about the viability of the spaces it
was maintaining, what alternative uses they might be put to.
Q36 Mr Khan: May I tell you why I
asked the question? Four questions ago, I asked you a question
about mapping, because my concern was that four questions on you
would say what you are saying. The question I asked four questions
ago was: how much of this green space is protected and therefore
cannot be built upon, for example, housing? You know the stories
about playing fields being sold off for luxury developments which
local people cannot use because they are luxury developments.
I am confused. I am sure you are not going to suggest luxury development
housing, because you are far too intelligent and as this is your
first select committee it would be suicide career-wise I am sure.
What sort of other things could they do besides luxury developments,
which have been my experience in Wandsworth?
Mr Housden: To link this to the
wider debate, one of the things which are important in sustaining
green spaces is actually to generate revenue and an authority
that had a plentiful supply of green space but was worried about
its quality might think about the way in which additional facilities
within green spaces might realise revenue. Those facilities of
course would need to be built on something.
Q37 Mr Khan: Do you mean an indoor
tennis court which only some people can afford because of the
fees?
Mr Housden: It would be for the
local authority to assess its community need and to engage people.
Q38 Mr Khan: In light of what you
have said, is it not staggering, if not quite a scandal, that
only 53%[2]
of urban local authorities have a written strategy for green space
and if you go to figure 56 and paragraph 4.16, it shows even more
shortcomings with regard to local authorities failing to have
any strategy for their green spaces. In light of their failure
to have a strategy, in light of the fact that ODPM seems to do
nothing about it, is it not surprising that some local authorities
are selling off their green spaces for luxury developments?
Mr Housden: It is certainly right
that our view is that local authorities benefit hugely by having
a well-developed and evidence-based strategy which offers sustainable
green spaces going forward.
Q39 Mr Khan: A significant number
do not and I am interested in them.
Mr Housden: Indeed. Our strategy
about targeting poor performers and providing the right balance
of incentives and challenge will encourage more authorities to
have a good urban green space.
2 In 2000, 53% of local authorities had a written
strategy. In 2005 this figure was 69%. Back
| 
