Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-139)
NORTHERN IRELAND
DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH, SOCIAL
SERVICES AND
PUBLIC SAFETY
2 NOVEMBER 2004
Q120 Mr Jenkins: In my part of the
world a surgeon has to give six weeks' notice of holiday, which
we think is too short. It is okay for the surgeon to go off to
Benidorm, as Mr Steinberg was saying, but it means that there
are patients struggling and suffering in pain. Do you realise
just how much pain you have contributed to by having such a poor
record of efficiency in your Department? Do you not feel that
the public out there have a right to know that the money sent
to them is to relieve pain and they should know they are taking
holidays ad hoc, when they want, which has cost this service substantial
amounts of money and that money would be better spent on relieving
pain rather than inefficiency?
Mr Gowdy: That is why we have
been working so hard on all of the issues that affect the waiting
lists and the waiting times. We understand fully that you have
got to get patients in as quickly as possible. We have made substantial
progress over the last couple of years on the waiting lists in
Northern Ireland and it is because we are doing helpful things,
like these recommendations from the Audit Office. It is not simply
in theatre utilisation, it has to be in how the totality of the
system operates, which includes trying to deal with these people
who do not attend, by encouraging people actually to meet their
obligations when they are offered an appointment because if they
do not take it up they can prevent someone else from getting it.
Chairman: Thank you. Mr Bacon?
Q121 Mr Bacon: Thank you, Chairman.
Mr Gowdy, who chose the sample of 16 trusts in England?
Mr Gowdy: I am not sure. I do
not know whether Mr Hamilton would know.
Mr Hamilton: I think that was
the company that we commissioned to undertake the analysis.
Q122 Mr Bacon: Mr Dowdall, from the
National Audit Office we regularly get lists of all the hospital
trusts in England. Is it possible that your office, together with
the NAO, could assemble a chart similar to the one on page 66
but with a much larger sample so that we can see a comparison
of all the English trusts compared with all these ones here as
to the utilisation of capacity of theatres? It would be very helpful
to get a more accurate comparison than just that of a sample.
Mr Dowdall: I will talk to the
NAO.
Q123 Mr Bacon: I have no way of assessing
Mr Gowdy's statement that Northern Ireland is not out of kilter
other than this sample of 16 trusts which we have not got details
of. It would be very helpful to have that as soon as possible.[2]
Mr Gowdy: We understand that the
company did choose a careful sample. I do not think it was just
picking any trust. We made it clear what we were trying to achieve
here.
Q124 Mr Bacon: It would be very helpful
to get a broader cross-section. If I could ask you to turn to
page 98 of the Report. It talks about the comparative inpatient
waiting lists and in figure 16 it says that the number of people
on inpatient waiting lists per 1,000 of population is 28 per thousand
in Northern Ireland compared with 20 in England and 16 in Scotland
and that the number of people on waiting lists waiting more than
12 months per thousand of population is 5.62 per thousand in Northern
Ireland, just under one in England and just under a quarter in
Scotland. In other words, in Northern Ireland it is six times
worse than in England and in Northern Ireland it is 20 times worse
than in Scotland. Scotland is a particularly interesting case
because you have a large country with a small population and some
of the rural funding problems that you have alluded to in Northern
Ireland. That chart was when this Report was produced, April 2003,
18 months ago. Is that chart still a reasonably accurate representation
of how things stand?
Mr Gowdy: We have made some very
remarkable progress since that time because we have an initiative
on waiting lists which has put a lot of emphasis in place. Mr
Hamilton can say a bit more about the table. Can I just say in
the last two years we have secured a decrease in the number of
people waiting from 60,000 in September 2002 down to 51,000 in
June 2004.
Q125 Mr Bacon: 51,000 is the total
number of people waiting?
Mr Gowdy: Total number of people
waiting, yes.
Q126 Mr Bacon: How many of those
are waiting more than 12 months?
Mr Gowdy: The so-called excess
waiters, which for us are over 18 months—
Q127 Mr Bacon: This table here says
over 12 months on page 98.
Mr Gowdy: We do have some figures
which Mr Hamilton—
Q128 Mr Bacon: Of the 51,000, how
many are waiting more than 12 months?
Mr Gowdy: It is 5% who are waiting
more than 12 months.
Q129 Mr Bacon: 5% of 51,000?
Mr Gowdy: Yes.
Mr Hamilton: 95% of all patients
are seen within 12 months. 75% are seen within three months.
Q130 Mr Bacon: Mr Hamilton, I was
not asking about what percentage of patients was seen within 12
months. Mr Gowdy said there were 51,000 people waiting and what
you mean is 95% of those were seen within 12 months and that 5%
are not?
Mr Hamilton: Yes.
Q131 Mr Bacon: So 2,500 of those
51,000 are waiting more than 12 months, are they?
Mr Hamilton: Sorry. 95% of people
who are treated in Northern Ireland are treated within 12 months.
Q132 Mr Bacon: The only trouble is
that is not the answer to my question. My question is if there
are 51,000 people waiting, how many of those are waiting more
than 12 months?
Mr Gowdy: We will get the figure.
Q133 Mr Bacon: On page 98 you have
got 5.62 per thousand of the population waiting more than 12 months.
This is a table that relates to Northern Ireland. These numbers
must be knowable. It does not say 18 months, it says 12 months.
Mr Gowdy: I know it does because
that was—
Q134 Mr Bacon: What is the answer?
Is it 5% of 51,000 roughly?
Mr Gowdy: I think we will have
to send you a note on this.
Q135 Mr Bacon: Do you think it is
roughly 5% of 51,000?
Mr Gowdy: We will have to send
you a note on this.[3]
Q136 Mr Bacon: You do not know.
Mr Gowdy: We do not have the figures
here. We record our data differently.
Q137 Mr Bacon: Logically if 95% of
these 51,000 people are being seen within 12 months, that means
5% are not. 5% of 51,000 is roughly 2,500, is it not? Am I missing
something?
Mr Gowdy: The way we record our
figures means the percentage of people treated is 95% treated
within 12 months, 5% obviously beyond that. The figure of 51,000
is the number waiting at the snapshot in time taken in June 2004.
If we can accelerate that, it will not necessarily be 5% of that
treated in—
Q138 Mr Bacon: I am still trying
to get to it. There is a table here that talks about the number
of people per thousand waiting more than 12 months. I do not understand
how the Acute Hospitals Review Group Report, June 2001, which
is where this table is taken from, referring to Northern Ireland
could have come out with this number of 5.62 unless they knew
how many people they were talking about.
Mr Gowdy: I am sorry if this sounds
confusing but the basis on which we record our waiting lists are
those who are waiting more than the Patient Charter standards,
which were 18 months and more.
Q139 Mr Bacon: We have a lot of problems
with waiting lists and the manipulation or difficulty in describing
the figures. This table is quite clear, it really is very clear,
and you are not being clear. I have even asked you to say whether
you think roughly the 2,500 I have come up with based on the answers
you have just given is accurate or not and you are not able to
do even that. Roughly, how many people are waiting more than 12
months? Roughly.
Mr Hamilton: We know there are
3,235 waiting more than 18 months.
Mr Gowdy: I would expect that
there would be another 2,000 perhaps.
2 Ev 19 Back
3
See Q201. Back
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