Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
DFT, ATOC, NETWORK
RAIL, ORR AND
SRA
12 OCTOBER 2005
Q80 Helen Goodman: In paragraph 3.16
on page 32 there is an estimate of greater passenger numbers of
11% when passenger safety improves. Do you think that is the sort
of increase in passenger numbers that we could expect if we had
across the board improvements in the quality of railway stations?
Mr Armitt: I have not seen the
research. I feel I am not qualified to comment.
Q81 Helen Goodman: Dr Mitchell?
Dr Mitchell: I think it is one
of the parts of the incentive on passengers. Clearly personal
security at stations is a very important issue for passengers.
Q82 Helen Goodman: What about that
kind of increase in the level of passenger journeys? Is that the
right ball park figure?
Dr Mitchell: Over the course of
six years, 11% is surprisingly high. The passenger growth per
year is about 5% to 8% on most franchises and 16% in one or two,
but I would be surprised if that measure alone caused that sort
of increase. However, it is obviously a factor in generating an
increase in passenger numbers.
Q83 Helen Goodman: When I travel
to my constituency in County Durham from London, I can get to
King's Cross by bus but when I get to Darlington, which is a regional
hub, there are no buses to the constituency at the railway station.
Within my constituency in the two railway stations at Shildon
and Bishop Auckland there is not even a bus stop. There is no
possibility of integrating the bus and the rail journey that I
have to take. There are three different rail companies involved
in this and two different bus companies. From your strategic position
in the Department for Transport, how would you set about tackling
that problem?
Dr Mitchell: From the point of
view of the Department for Transport we are keen to see further
integration and improved integration at railway stations. However,
most bus services in the UK outside London are provided by a deregulated
industry, where bus companies are entitled to operate or not operate
as they see fit. The only exception to that is where local authorities
choose to provide socially necessary bus routes which may include
links to stations. That is not within my power to influence directly.
Q84 Helen Goodman: You are saying
that, despite the fact that you are responsible for the strategy
on this, you do not have any leverage whatsoever to improve the
integration between rail and bus?
Dr Mitchell: We have limited leverage.
As Mr Muir mentioned earlier, it is in the commercial interests
of some companies where there are major traffic flows. I am thinking
of between, for example, Taunton and Minehead where there is a
major flow of passengers and a very good bus service which runs
every half hour. In those cases it is worthwhile. I know that
my old company has produced a very effective integration leaflet
which shows how one gets from rail to bus in the west of England
and south Wales. It can be done.
Q85 Ms Johnson: I would like to explore
disability issues a little more. In particular I want to look
at paragraph 3.11 on page 30 of the Report, the section dealing
with information systems. The reason I am particularly interested
in this is because I had a hearing impaired constituent who came
to me and explained to me that she had a great deal of problem
travelling by train in my constituency. I was surprised to see
the percentages therefore. First of all, 39% of stations have
electronic passenger information systems and 65% have public address
systems. I want to know why in this day and age we are not at
100% for both of those because they do help people with disabilities,
visual and aural.
Dr Mitchell: I could not agree
more. In an ideal world, we should have that kind of provision.
It is the sort of thing that people have come to expect and deserve.
It is purely a question of prioritisation, the availability of
money and assessing each scheme on a value for money basis. We
have an obligation to address all these issues by 2015 and there
is a £370 million fund to help with that.
Q86 Ms Johnson: This £370 million
has been set aside. Is it prioritised? Do we know what is going
to be done first, which station or what kind of facilities will
be made available?
Dr Mitchell: No, we have not completed
the prioritisation for that. A small sub-department within the
Department for Transport is working on that as we speak and I
am hopeful that will be completed very shortly.
Q87 Ms Johnson: At the moment, in
order to get an information system up so that people who are hearing
impaired can read what has happened to the train and where it
is, do the train operating companies who run the stations have
the money to do that?
Dr Mitchell: I would not like
to give the impression that the £370 million is the only
money available. Some of the train operators and indeed Network
Rail are providing such facilities outside the scheme. The £370
million is a contribution towards that.
Q88 Ms Johnson: You are encouraging
train operating companies to do that?
Dr Mitchell: Yes.
Q89 Ms Johnson: In order to find
out when Hull is likely to get this information system, that is
a matter for the train operating company that is managing Hull?
Is that right?
Dr Mitchell: That is correct.
Q90 Ms Johnson: I would need to press
them and also come back to you?
Dr Mitchell: That would be Trans-Pennine
Express who are dealing with that. I know they have £12 million
for an upgrade of stations in their area and they are in the process
of doing a number of things to the stations.
Q91 Ms Johnson: The £12 million
is an upgrade across the board? It is not for the disability issue?
Dr Mitchell: The £12 million
is the enhancement budget for Trans-Pennine Express but they have
an obligation within the franchise agreement to deal with a number
of disabled issues such as, for example, lifts at Warrington Station
and improving access to waiting rooms at Huddersfield and other
places.
Q92 Ms Johnson: I also wanted to
ask about figure 11 on page 33 of the Report. I was particularly
looking at toilets and toilet facilities. As you go across the
columns, obviously the number of stations that have toilet facilities
reduces dramatically. Clearly, some are very small stations. Is
there a view that all stations should have toilet facilities?
Dr Mitchell: No. That is not the
position. There is a difficulty with providing toilets, particularly
at unstaffed stations because of the difficulties with vandalism
and so forth. There have been cases in the past where we have
had to withdraw facilities because of the amount of vandalism.
The provision of toilets at particular stations is a matter for
the train company and enhancement is a matter of value for money.
Q93 Ms Johnson: I imagine with the
older stations that if there were toilets they were part of the
building. I want to know about the toilets that you see on the
streets, where they are self-contained. I wonder if that option
has been looked at because it seems to me we have toilet facilities
outside stations. We need this facility, because for older people
especially and families it is very difficult.
Dr Mitchell: This is a French
style toilet. We should be open to that kind of idea. Thank you
very much.
Q94 Ms Johnson: Can I ask you about
security and safety? It is paragraph 3.20 on page 32. I wanted
to explore whether there is any joined up thinking between the
stations, the local police and British Transport Police. In Hull
in particular we have community wardens who are very successful
and now there are the Police Community Support Officers as well.
I am wondering what relationships exist and whether there has
been any attempt at using some of the antisocial behaviour legislation
to deal with some of the people who are causing problems at stations
and who seem to be doing it on a fairly regular basis.
Dr Mitchell: I think I am right
in saying that the first ASBOs were used by British Transport
Police in the West of England. I may be wrong. Transport Police
are very active in using Antisocial behaviour orders to control
nuisance people at stations, aggressive beggars and such. British
Transport Police have also been very active in developing Community
Support Officers so they are looking, not only with the train
companies but with the Home Office police forces, to attend to
the problems you mention.
Q95 Ms Johnson: Of course there are
not police at every station, are there? British Transport Police
cannot cover every station, so the use of community wardens and
other wardens which exist may well be a way forward.
Dr Mitchell: It could be. The
majority of the Community Support Officers are in London because
most of the crime is in the London stations and in the principal
stations such as Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester and so on, but
there is clearly an opportunity for more.
Q96 Ms Johnson: I also just wanted
to ask about the nice picture of Leipzig railway station on page
43. It is explaining there a separating out of retail from operational
within stations. We were discussing the press release and I just
wondered is the idea of it that in some of the stations we will
have that separation? Again, looking back at Hull, Hull is a large
Victorian station, it is very underused in terms of its space
and it could be really developed as part of a retail shopping
mall, I guess. At the moment it is purely used as a railway station.
I just wondered if there was any thought about using European
models?
Mr Armitt: Yes. Retail opportunity
is clearly one which we exploit as much as we can in the major
stations which Network Rail control directly themselves. Of course,
at the moment, Hull is undergoing major refurbishment and there
is a new development taking place alongside it which will link
in with buses and anything else. Hull is quite an exciting station.
I am surprised to hear that it has not got an announcement system;
I will follow that up. The interesting thing about Leipzig is
when you look at the numbers quoted on this illustration, of that
160,000 people passing through each day, 40,000 actually get on
the train. So what we have got here is a shopping centre with
some platforms set on the top as opposed to the other way round.
Clearly, it is a major opportunity and the objective is to try
and get stations more and more as part of the community. Whether
it is offices, whether it is retail or whether it is clinics—in
some of the major stations in London now, you can go and see the
doctor on the station—integrating a station into the general
fabric of the community in the towns is something we would encourage
all the time.
Q97 Chairman: 120,000 passengers
a day, what would that relate to in England?
Mr Armitt: Here it is 120,000
that are not rail passengers.
Q98 Chairman: Leipzig, in terms of
rail passengers, what would it relate to in England?
Mr Armitt: 40,000 a day.
Mr Muir: Waterloo is 200,000,
so this is a quarter of Waterloo.
Q99 Chairman: Give us an example
other than London.
Mr Armitt: Chairman, at a guess
I would say Doncaster.
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